Heart Sutra question

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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:32 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:FOr those who can see emptiness, they will not live in the fabrication of idea.
They are free from arising, passing away, and alteration.

Direct realization requires the development of the complete and unerring causes and conditions of awakening. Kamalaśīla's Second Bhāvanākrama:

    Intelligent people who wish to rapidly attain omniscience should endeavor to fulfill the necessary causes and conditions which bring omniscience about. It is impossible for omniscience to arise without causes since this would entail the absurd consequence whereby everyone could be omniscient all the time. If it could arise independently, it could exist everywhere without obstructions, and again, everybody would be omniscient. Moreover, all functional things depend exclusively on causes because they only occur for certain persons at certain times. And so, because omniscience does not arise for everybody everywhere at all times, it most certainly depends upon causes and conditions.

    Also, from among those causes and conditions, one should rely on unerring and complete causes. If one engages in erroneous causes, even exerting oneself for a very long time, the desired fruition will not be obtained. For example, it would be like milking a cow's horn. Furthermore, an effect will not arise if all of its causes are not practiced. If a seed or any other cause is missing, then the result, such as a sprout, will not arise. Therefore, someone seeking a particular result should develop its unerring and complete causes and conditions.

And if there weren't obscurations to be eliminated all sentient beings would already be effortlessly liberated. Khenpo Shenga's commentary on the Madhyāntavibhāga:

    The obscurations associated with the factors of enlightenment are as follows: Lacking a thorough knowledge of the basis hinders the applications of mindfulness. Laziness hinders the authentic eliminations. The deterioration of meditative absorption obstructs the bases of miraculous power. This occurs due to two factors: (1) lacking intention, diligence, volition, or discernment, and (2) not having sufficiently cultivated the formations associated with relinquishment. Not developing the factors conducive to liberation obscures the faculties, while the weakness of these faculties obstructs the powers. Flaws that relate to view hinder the aspects of enlightenment from arising and flaws that relate to the negative tendencies obstruct the aspects of the path.

And Ju Mipham's commentary on the Madhyāntavibhāga:

    [T]here are an infinite number of obscurations that can be discussed, but in brief, these obscurations all fall into two categories: the afflictive obscurations and cognitive obscurations. The afflictive obscurations obstruct liberation and are the cause of cyclic existence. The cognitive obscurations, on the other hand, are explained to obstruct the direct perception of all objects of knowledge....

    If this is not accepted, one will fail to comprehend properly the final liberation in which all of the obscurations are relinquished. Neither will one be able to understand issues such as the remedies that enable one to eliminate these obscurations. Consequently, one will be unable to provide a solid explanation of the principles of the path.
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:44 pm

Dexing wrote:The meaning is that in śūnyatā there is "nothing" to be abandoned, and to hold that there is something to abandon is to necessarily partake of the idea of an entity. This would be the śrāvaka path of "emptying" the personal selfhood but leaving the selfhood of dharmas which are also to be "emptied" in the Mahāyāna.

Yes, yes. And the Mahāyāna also includes a bodhisattva path for good reason. Denying or marginalizing suffering, karma, affliction, and obscuration renders the bodhisattva path superfluous. This is a fairly common delusion, but a significant delusion nevertheless. Ju Mipham:

    By their very essence, the defiled aggregates entail suffering in each and every moment. The superficial appearance of pleasure is transitory and both pleasure and pain eventually become the cause of suffering. Thus, the aggregates relate to the three kinds of suffering: the suffering of suffering, the suffering of change, and the all-pervasive suffering of conditioning. In this way, they are the basis for suffering....

    What is the purpose of meditating on emptiness? Its purpose is to obtain the qualities of the conditioned path and the unconditioned fruition, the transcendence of suffering.
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:41 pm

Jnana,

I have no problem with your quote.

The problem I have is you support the idea of abandoning.

Even in Pali Canon, which I quoted above, mentions very clearly - No alteration.

If you abandon something, you have alter your original state.

You abandon something, because you cannot accept what is going on right now. So you do something - by abandoning.

This is a subtle and serious error.

Because you cannot see everything is transient, having no self, when some state of emotion appear, you throw it away. You abandon it.

The teaching of emptiness is the foundation that tells us there is nothing in everything. When anger arise, there is actually no arising of anger, no duration of anger, and no cessation of anger.

For those people, they don't need to alter anything. Because they see clearly it is not suffering, and so on.

They are absolutely calm, living inside that anger and knowing precisely that anger is just an ornament, instead of something we need to abandon.

If we get the meaning of emptiness, we don't need to do anything and to alter any state, because any states are same - pure.

For people who don't get the meaning of emptiness. They will never understand why anger is ornament, why anger is wisdom, why jealousy is wisdom. They will see it as something evil.

Please note: saying jealousy is wisdom sounds crazy. But, if you can see the nature of emptiness of jealousy, you can see it is actually just another form of wisdom. This is because the nature of jealousy is void. Because of this nature and if we know this nature, it cannot harm us, and it is also not harmful.

That is why - No alteration is required at all - as mentioned very clearly in Pali canon.

But, if you cannot see the voidness of jealousy - you will mistake that jealousy and it is indeed becoming harmful.

From your word of abandon something, it can be seen very clearly - you are holding a self. No matter how good you say explicitly no self, you are actually holding a subtle self.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:06 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:The problem I have is you support the idea of abandoning.

The bodhisattva path taught in the Mahāyāna sūtras is a path of renunciation. There is no possibility of realizing buddhahood without completely eliminating the cognitive and affective obscurations.

DarwidHalim wrote:Even in Pali Canon, which I quoted above, mentions very clearly - No alteration.

The noble eightfold path taught in the Pāli Nikāyas is also a path of renunciation. There is no possibility of realizing nirvāṇa -- the arhat-fruition -- without completely eliminating lust, hatred, and delusion.

DarwidHalim wrote:Because you cannot see everything is transient, having no self, when some state of emotion appear, you throw it away. You abandon it....

From your word of abandon something, it can be seen very clearly - you are holding a self. No matter how good you say explicitly no self, you are actually holding a subtle self.

Nonsense. With the arising of non-conceptual jñāna there is the cessation of reification (samāropa) and over-negation (apavāda). Crystal clear dependence (i.e. pratītyasamutpāda). No self required.
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:12 pm

Renunciation is the path.
In beginning we renounce, but when you grow in your wisdom you will be able to see the nature of thing slowly slowly. At that time, you have less thing to renounce. In this path, you start with renouncing as if there is something to renounce, because of your dualistic mind. But later, when your wisdom grow, you will be able to let some weak negative emotion lose nakedly. That emotion will not harm you anymore, because you can see their nature. For the things you can already let it be, you will not renounce it anymore, but for the things that still can harm you, you renounce. You renounce until you are ready to see its true nature.

At the end of renunciation path, you will finally realize there is actually nothing for you to renounce.

You don't throw anything, because there is nothing can be thrown.
You also don't add anything, because there is nothing can be added.

Jnana wrote:Nonsense. With the arising of non-conceptual jñāna there is the cessation of reification (samāropa) and over-negation (apavāda). Crystal clear dependence (i.e. pratītyasamutpāda). No self required.


Your non-conceptual jnana will not bring you very far. You will just like the main teacher of Siddharta who stay in the peak of samsara - realm of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception

Even Hindu priest can have the non-conceptual wisdom. They can be absolutely free from any negative emotions you can think about - free from anger, hatred, etc. Do you know their problem?

As long as you cannot see the non-self, your negative emotions are just hiding. You think you have eliminate it, but they are just hiding under the power of your non-conceptual jnana.

You are living in the time bomb.

It is not a surprise for you to mention "No self required", because probably you don't know why the view of emptiness is the only way we can get out from this birth and death.

The understanding and realization of no self is a must and compulsory.

If you don't realize it - sorry, the highest place you can go is the peak of samsara - realm Neither-perception-nor-non-perception.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:38 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:Your non-conceptual jnana will not bring you very far. You will just like the main teacher of Siddharta who stay in the peak of samsara - realm of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception

It's quite obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. I already pointed out to you that jñāna is not to be confused with the Pāli term jhāna. Completely different terms with completely different meanings. Jñāna means "knowledge." Every single Buddhist path -- Theravāda, Mahāyāna, & Vajrayāna -- employs jñāna to attain liberation.

The purpose of prajñāpāramitā is to induce nonconceptual jñāna (nirvikalpajñāna). This is taught throughout the Mahāyāna treatises. And in the Vajrayāna we find the five jñānas: dharmadhātu jñāna (dharmadhātujñāna), mirror-like jñāna (ādarśajñāna), equalizing jñāna (samatājñāna), discriminating jñāna (pratyavekṣanājñāna), and all-accomplishing jñāna (kṛtyānuṣṭhānajñāna). Etc., etc..
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:49 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:At the end of renunciation path, you will finally realize there is actually nothing for you to renounce.

In the pāramitāyāna the path isn't to be equated with the fruition of the path. The Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra:

    Moreover, Subhūti, the Mahāyāna of the bodhisattva-mahāsattva, that too is the four right strivings. What four? Now, Subhūti, a bodhisattva-mahāsattva produces desire, he endeavours, he produces energy, he takes hold of his mind, he exerts himself well for the non arising of bad, evil dharmas when they have not arisen. He produces desire, he endeavours, he produces energy, he takes hold of his mind, he exerts himself well for the destruction of bad, evil dharmas when they have arisen. He produces desire, he endeavours, he produces energy, he takes hold of his mind, he exerts himself well for the arising of good dharmas when they have not arisen. He produces desire, he endeavours, he produces energy, he takes hold of his mind, he exerts himself well for the continuance, increase, non loss, [and] non decrease of good dharmas when they have arisen. Even that, Subhūti, is the Mahāyāna of the bodhisattva-mahāsattva.

Similar instructions are found in the Daśabhūmika Sūtra, the Dharmasaṃgraha, the Śikṣāsamuccaya, and so on.
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby DarwidHalim » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:29 am

Jnana wrote:It's quite obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. I already pointed out to you that jñāna is not to be confused with the Pāli term jhāna. Completely different terms with completely different meanings. Jñāna means "knowledge." Every single Buddhist path -- Theravāda, Mahāyāna, & Vajrayāna -- employs jñāna to attain liberation.

The purpose of prajñāpāramitā is to induce nonconceptual jñāna (nirvikalpajñāna). This is taught throughout the Mahāyāna treatises. And in the Vajrayāna we find the five jñānas: dharmadhātu jñāna (dharmadhātujñāna), mirror-like jñāna (ādarśajñāna), equalizing jñāna (samatājñāna), discriminating jñāna (pratyavekṣanājñāna), and all-accomplishing jñāna (kṛtyānuṣṭhānajñāna). Etc., etc..


I mentioned on top, non-conceptual wisdom which here equivalent to your non-conceptual "knowledge". I am not talking about jhana which you achieve in your Samantha.

If you cannot know anger, jealousy, hatred is basically wisdom of emptiness, your non-conceptual Jnana is actually conceptual jnana.

Heart sutra clearly mentioned
The five skhandas are empty.
Because of that Avalokitesvhara cross beyond all samsara and difficulty.

Anger, jealousy, hatred, and all negative thoughts are all inside these 5 skhandas. And they are empty.

Anger is empty of anger.
Jealousy is empty of jealousy.
Hatred is empty of jealousy.

Because they are empty, they will just pass by in your head without gluing into your head. Someone who knows the emptiness of them, when they appear they can see the non-self of them. They fully realize the non arising, an the non cessation of all negative thought.

They no need to do anything. Completely do nothing. All those negative thoughts are just pass by showing their wisdom of emptiness to anyone who know their nature.

Since anger is empty, hatred is empty, jealousy is empty, doing something on them clearly show you don't know what is their nature.

The non-conceptual jnana is then just a conceptual jnana.

If it is non-conceptual Jnana, it will not classify anger, hatred, jealousy as negative. Because it is non-conceptual. So with what Jnana you abandon anger, hatred, and jealousy? No matter how you look at it, if you abandon something you will clearly use your conceptual Jnana.

In non-conceptual Jnana there is no good, no bad, no neutral, no negative, no positive. Therefore if you can abandon something, it is therefore based in conceptual Jnana who cannot see the meaning of all 5 skhandas are empty.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby Jnana » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:19 am

DarwidHalim wrote:I mentioned on top, non-conceptual wisdom which here equivalent to your non-conceptual "knowledge". I am not talking about jhana which you achieve in your Samantha.

Therefore if you can abandon something, it is therefore based in conceptual Jnana who cannot see the meaning of all 5 skhandas are empty.

Actually, what you are so keen to advocate over and over again is entirely conceptual if not based in an authentic path. If you want to realize buddhahood then you will either accumulate merit and wisdom, which includes developing all of the requisites including the four dhyānas, the four formless attainments, and the cessation attainment, or receive Vajrayāna empowerment, transmission, and oral instructions from a qualified guru and practice the two stages, or receive direct introduction from a qualified guru. Trying to realize buddhahood without engaging in an authentic path is delusional wishful thinking.
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby DarwidHalim » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:46 am

Well, if what I am advocating is conceptual jnana, I will advocate abandoning. Because only from conceptual jnana, I can categorize phenomena into good and bad. The good thing I keep, the bad thing I abandon.

But, since I am never agree with the act of abandoning, it is clear here I staying within nonconceptual Jnana. Because in non-conceptual Jnana, there is no division between good and bad, positive and negative.

With the noncenceptual jnana, you will not be able to see anger, hatred, and jealosy as negative.

With nonconceptual Jnana, all of them (anger, jealousy, patient, generosity) have the same taste - which is void of any characteristic. Empty.

Therefore, the act of changing the present nature, such as abandoning, rejecting, accepting are just the manifestation of someone who hold conceptual Jnana.

The heart sutra is the Sutta that tell us the dirt that you regard as dirt is actually not dirt.
The holly thing that you think is holy, is actually not holly.

You will not be bound by good, bad, positive, negative, because all those things are actually not there. Absolutely your mind projection.
If you can get it, you will free like a boddhisattva who can cross all samsaric without any single fear and attachment.

Ok that is te whole point I want to deliver.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby Dexing » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:26 am

I think we lost Bonsai Doug... :shrug:
nopalabhyate...
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Re: Heart Sutra question

Postby Kaji » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:18 pm

Thank you, DarwidHalim, for your posts. It is refreshing to see explanation of the Heart Sutra in English. I have certainly learned from your posts. :namaste:
Namas triya-dhvikānāṃ sarva tathāgatānām!
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