Four forbidden fruits

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Four forbidden fruits

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:07 am

I'm trying to identify what these forbidden fruits are as related in the Chinese translation of the Mahāsāṃghika Vinaya. They are transliterated from Sanskrit and of course don't make immediate sense. Does this ring a bell with anyone? I imagine these were unfamiliar to the original translators and thus they were transliterated.

《摩訶僧祇律》卷20:「食墟邏果。迦比哆果。比邏婆果。拘陀羅果。此諸果食者令人醉。食者越毘尼罪。」(CBETA, T22, no. 1425, p. 387, b18-20)

Eating the xu luo fruit 墟邏果,jia bi duo fruit 迦比哆果, bi luo po fruit 比邏婆果, and the ju tuo luo fruit 拘陀羅果 - these fruits when eaten make a person intoxicated. Eating them is a Vinaya transgression.


The "ju tuo luo fruit 拘陀羅果" might be akin to nyag-rodha (ni ju tuo 尼拘陀)?
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Re: Four forbidden fruits

Postby Huifeng » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:52 am

Huseng wrote:I'm trying to identify what these forbidden fruits are as related in the Chinese translation of the Mahāsāṃghika Vinaya. They are transliterated from Sanskrit and of course don't make immediate sense. Does this ring a bell with anyone? I imagine these were unfamiliar to the original translators and thus they were transliterated.

《摩訶僧祇律》卷20:「食墟邏果。迦比哆果。比邏婆果。拘陀羅果。此諸果食者令人醉。食者越毘尼罪。」(CBETA, T22, no. 1425, p. 387, b18-20)

Eating the xu luo fruit 墟邏果,jia bi duo fruit 迦比哆果, bi luo po fruit 比邏婆果, and the ju tuo luo fruit 拘陀羅果 - these fruits when eaten make a person intoxicated. Eating them is a Vinaya transgression.


The "ju tuo luo fruit 拘陀羅果" might be akin to nyag-rodha (ni ju tuo 尼拘陀)?


Have you checked the corresponding Pali section of the Vinaya, and / or the other Vinayas?

You can also try searching Skt dictionary using back translation prefix / partial string with English "fruit", eg.
迦比哆果。
(mwd) kapitthaka m. Feronia Elephantum ; (%{am}) n. the fruit of it R.

拘陀羅果
(otl) kuTavan2 02 1. palmyra or mahua fruit with a single stone or seed; 2. dancing girl; 3. a kind of cattle-tick
(mwd) kutumburu n. a bad fruit of the plant Diospyros embryopteris Pa1n2. 6-1 , 143 Ka1s3.

Just a thought viz method.

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Re: Four forbidden fruits

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:05 pm

Huifeng wrote:Have you checked the corresponding Pali section of the Vinaya, and / or the other Vinayas?


I'm not at all skilled with the Pali Vinaya (I don't know Pali :reading: ), but I did try to snoop around a bit, but to no avail. Also in CBETA there are references to impure fruits, but not the same as what I cited above.



You can also try searching Skt dictionary using back translation prefix / partial string with English "fruit", eg.
迦比哆果。
(mwd) kapitthaka m. Feronia Elephantum ; (%{am}) n. the fruit of it R.

拘陀羅果
(otl) kuTavan2 02 1. palmyra or mahua fruit with a single stone or seed; 2. dancing girl; 3. a kind of cattle-tick
(mwd) kutumburu n. a bad fruit of the plant Diospyros embryopteris Pa1n2. 6-1 , 143 Ka1s3.

Just a thought viz method.

~~ Huifeng


That seems to produce results indeed! At least two of them. Thank you!

I'll look into it more later. I thought perhaps it might ring a bell to someone here.

Incidentally, does anyone know if there was ever a complete translation of the Mahāsāṃghika Vinaya? It doesn't seem like there ever was.
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Re: Four forbidden fruits

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:17 pm

墟邏果

This is interesting. The Sino-Japanese reading for this is kyo ra きょら, which sounds like Sanskrit kola.

(H1B) kola [L=56681] f(ā , ī). the jujube tree L.
(H1B) kola [L=56682] n. the fruit of the jujube (cf. kuvala) ChUp. vii , 3 , 1 Lalit. Sus3r.

A lot of times the preserved Chinese readings in Japanese dating back to the Tang Dynasty reflect the transliteration far closer than modern Mandarin readings.
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Re: Four forbidden fruits

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:22 pm

比邏婆

(H2) bilvá [p= 732,1] [L=145299] m. (in later language also vilva) Aegle Marmelos , the wood-apple tree (commonly called Bel ; its delicious fruit when unripe is used medicinally ; its leaves , are employed in the ceremonial of the worship of śiva ; cf. RTL. 336) AV. &c


While the transliteration seems to be pointing to this, I'd have to see if anywhere else this kind of fruit is banned.
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Re: Four forbidden fruits

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:41 pm

Huseng wrote:比邏婆

(H2) bilvá [p= 732,1] [L=145299] m. (in later language also vilva) Aegle Marmelos , the wood-apple tree (commonly called Bel ; its delicious fruit when unripe is used medicinally ; its leaves , are employed in the ceremonial of the worship of śiva ; cf. RTL. 336) AV. &c


While the transliteration seems to be pointing to this, I'd have to see if anywhere else this kind of fruit is banned.



Unlikely, since in Chinese depictions of Bhaisajyaguru, this is the fruit he is depicted as holding.
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Re: Four forbidden fruits

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:Unlikely, since in Chinese depictions of Bhaisajyaguru, this is the fruit he is depicted as holding.


That's an important observation I'll have to bear in mind.

It is curious that these forbidden fruits only seem to appear in the Mahāsāṃghika Vinaya and nowhere else. We need to bear in mind most Chinese monastics never followed said Vinaya. The foremost Vinaya lineage in China was the Dharmagupta one.
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Re: Four forbidden fruits

Postby Sherlock » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:09 pm

luo po guo 羅婆果(梵語也亦云頻螺果或言避羅果皆訛也果形金色如甘子大西國祠天多用此木作憧莊嚴供養也)

bi luo shu http://baike.baidu.com/view/565898.htm
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Re: Four forbidden fruits

Postby Huifeng » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:10 am

Good work, Huseng, it's a general search method which can also be applied to other material, too.

You should also try other possible characters in the search, as there may be variants, eg. 羅 for 邏, etc. Not to mention obviously being alert to haplographic errors (ie. scribal mistakes) where a similar character is mis-scribed as something else. And also try by skipping the first and / or last character, on the principle that the Chinese often skip these in shortening a (particularly phoneticized) term.

If you are having trouble with the Pali sources, use an English translation that references the PTS (or other) Pali edition page number, then look that up in the PTS (or other) actual edition itself. No guarantees that it will actually be there, but it's kind of something that cannot be overlooked.

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