Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:56 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:30 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche visited my city giving transmission and commentary on three short texts:

The Illuminating Wisdom by Milarepa
The single sufficient Path by Gampopa
The Single Word of Heart Advice by Karmapa Rangjung Dorje

During the teaching he defined the three types of Mahamudra in the following way

Sutra Mahamudra as a gradual approach covering Shamatha and Vipassana and the four yogas of Mahamudra
Tantra Mahamudra as path approached through tsa. lung, tigle and the sig yogas
Essence Mahamudra as a nongradual path where one is directly introduced to equivalent to the last yoga Mahamudra, non-meditation

He also said that the three short texts above are the Essence Mahamudra teachings and that they are complete as they are. I thought this was highly interesting since it clearly show why Rinpoche say that Essence Mahamudra and Dzogchen Trechö are the same.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:26 am 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 pm
Posts: 1062
Yes - very interesting. Both CNR and Tsoknyi Rinpoche have said that essence mahamudra's tha mal gyi shepa and rigpa are identical.

_________________
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:05 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Paul wrote:
Yes - very interesting. Both CNR and Tsoknyi Rinpoche have said that essence mahamudra's tha mal gyi shepa and rigpa are identical.


Also many other Lama's. But to me it always been a bit confusing since all longer Mahmudra texts contain a gradual path of shine/lhaktong and the four yogas. This is certainly not the Dzogchen style except in Semde, now this statement make it match more the Menngakde Trechö.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:39 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Posts: 4203
Location: Budapest
Is this some fixed set of instructions? Even in the book Crystal Cave they follow each other.

I find that this short poem of the 16th Karmapa rhymes well with Milarepa's: Heart of Mahamudra

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:45 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Astus wrote:
Is this some fixed set of instructions? Even in the book Crystal Cave they follow each other.

I find that this short poem of the 16th Karmapa rhymes well with Milarepa's: Heart of Mahamudra


I don't know, CNR is teaching them right now as a set. He said he received them from the 16th Karmapa seven times, which make it sound like they might be a part of a set.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:40 pm
Posts: 452
Paul wrote:
Yes - very interesting. Both CNR and Tsoknyi Rinpoche have said that essence mahamudra's tha mal gyi shepa and rigpa are identical.


Mingyur Rinpoche teaches like this too....I'm sure It's the TUR pedigree :) I was listening to a MR teaching from a few years back on mp3 recently and he freely interchanges between the 2 phrases....also mixing techniques of pointing out from both approaches.

_________________
s.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:22 pm 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 pm
Posts: 1062
heart wrote:
Paul wrote:
Yes - very interesting. Both CNR and Tsoknyi Rinpoche have said that essence mahamudra's tha mal gyi shepa and rigpa are identical.


Also many other Lama's. But to me it always been a bit confusing since all longer Mahmudra texts contain a gradual path of shine/lhaktong and the four yogas. This is certainly not the Dzogchen style except in Semde, now this statement make it match more the Menngakde Trechö.

/magnus


Tsele Natsok Rangdrol explains trekcho according to the four yogas of Mahamudra in Circle of the Sun. There's also a very interesting presentation of the four visions of Dzogchen in relation to trekcho in Quintessential Dzogchen, near the bottom of page 33 in the text The Vital Essence by Shakya Shri Jnana - this seems to me to match the four yogas of Mahamudra almost exactly.

_________________
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:25 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
So each teacher teaches based on what they have learned, where is the issue in that? :shrug:
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:10 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Paul wrote:
heart wrote:
Paul wrote:
Yes - very interesting. Both CNR and Tsoknyi Rinpoche have said that essence mahamudra's tha mal gyi shepa and rigpa are identical.


Also many other Lama's. But to me it always been a bit confusing since all longer Mahmudra texts contain a gradual path of shine/lhaktong and the four yogas. This is certainly not the Dzogchen style except in Semde, now this statement make it match more the Menngakde Trechö.

/magnus


Tsele Natsok Rangdrol explains trekcho according to the four yogas of Mahamudra in Circle of the Sun. There's also a very interesting presentation of the four visions of Dzogchen in relation to trekcho in Quintessential Dzogchen, near the bottom of page 33 in the text The Vital Essence by Shakya Shri Jnana - this seems to me to match the four yogas of Mahamudra almost exactly.



Yes, that is true. Still Rinpoche said there was no four yogas in Essence Mahamudra since you were directly introduced to the fourth yoga, non-meditation.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:39 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Posts: 2940
Location: Space is the Place
heart wrote:

Interesting.I have high esteem for Garchen Rinpoche.

/magnus


Yes, I feel he is one of the living greats. One of my first Vajra Gurus. :bow:

_________________
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:11 am
Posts: 383
Here is a link to the text of The Very Essence of Mind, Mahamudra, the One Sufficient Path and Root Verses of Illuminating Wisdom. The third is also on the Internet, but I won't link to it, out of respect for Rangjung Dorje and my teacher's intentions.

_________________
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:23 pm 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 pm
Posts: 1062
I came across this very interesting quote in Thrangu Rinpoche's Essentials of Mahamudra (pages 219 and 220)...:

Quote:
The Tibetan word lada is translated as "utterly releasing". Utterly releasing means abandoning all doubt and hesitation in our meditation and settling decisively on what mind is. Lada literally means leaping over a pass rather than going over in a step-by-step progression. Lada in the mahamudra tradition corresponds to tögal in the Nyingma dzogchen tradition, which literally means “leaping over.” The term lada conveys the sense of having complete conviction and practicing with total freedom from doubt. It is like going up a mountain in a car: There is one long route that winds up the mountain in a slow careful way and another short, difficult route that goes straight up the mountain and requires great exertion. We are not going to take the long easy route; instead we are going to take the short cut, which is very quick but very difficult.

_________________
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:31 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Posts: 2940
Location: Space is the Place
But correspond means what exactly? I am assuming
there are not practices that work with visual
phenomenon and light in the same way Thogal
practices do...

_________________
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Adamantine wrote:
But correspond means what exactly? I am assuming
there are not practices that work with visual
phenomenon and light in the same way Thogal
practices do...



It is a literal definition i.e.la bzla ba (which is a Dzogchen term incidentally, it is a very old Tibetan word) means "to transcend, to go beyond", thod rgal means literally, in a sutra sense "skipping bhumis", which how it is used in sutra.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:00 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Posts: 2940
Location: Space is the Place
Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
But correspond means what exactly? I am assuming
there are not practices that work with visual
phenomenon and light in the same way Thogal
practices do...



It is a literal definition i.e.la bzla ba (which is a Dzogchen term incidentally, it is a very old Tibetan word) means "to transcend, to go beyond", thod rgal means literally, in a sutra sense "skipping bhumis", which how it is used in sutra.


So it corresponds in the sense of skipping Bhumis then. Got it, thanks! But it still sounds practice-wise lot more like Trekcho, at least from the quote. . .

_________________
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:50 pm
Posts: 2
heart wrote:
Astus wrote:
Is this some fixed set of instructions? Even in the book Crystal Cave they follow each other.

I find that this short poem of the 16th Karmapa rhymes well with Milarepa's: Heart of Mahamudra


I don't know, CNR is teaching them right now as a set. He said he received them from the 16th Karmapa seven times, which make it sound like they might be a part of a set.

/magnus


There are a few Tibetan versions where they are collected as a set. And I have three (or maybe two) English versions, and a Danish where they come as a set.

_________________
/Peter


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:16 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Posts: 4203
Location: Budapest
The 3rd Karmapa was a master not only of Mahamudra but also Dzogchen and Kalachakra. Still, he says in the Single Word of Heart advice, "I swear there is not a more profound and ultimate instruction from all the holy and realized masters of the enlightened lineage that is more profound and more vital than this single word of my heart-advice."

Adeu Rinpoche (in Quintessential Dzogchen, p. 213) also finds correlation between the four yogas and the four visions as the gradual stages of training in the natural state of mind.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Posts: 2755
Off topic posts removed.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group