Kensho and Satori

Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:32 pm

Jikan wrote:Putting the question differently...

if someone puts out his shingle as a professional kensho-inducer, shouldn't he be prepared for potential clients to ask to see his credentials before laying down $2000 on the promised delivery of goods & services. Are we back in "applied Zen" country, where a certain kind of cool, stable mindstate is fungible into improved performance at work (for leaders and producers)...?



sharpening stones, walking on coals
to improve your business acumen

So how about it: what are your credentials for providing an authentic kensho experiences to ordinary neurotics in search of a leg up on the pile, mujushinkyo?


Jikan,

I provide impeccable references before getting down to work, but only for serious students. Does that resolve the question for you?

In any case, I don't "give" people kensho experiences. That's not in my brief. I merely help with certain energetic techniques to "clear the mind" and make it ready. There's a big f**cking difference!

At least five people I've helped out have had kensho (the fundamental "Realization"). It's truly great to see This happen -- so much so that I doubt ordinary garden variety griping by people who are stuck in their "teachings" can ever depress me again!

I have a humble poem for you, too:

brilliant peony
of naked space

Love to you, man.

Andrew
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:38 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I see you have (unskillfully) avoided answering Jikans question and just continued advertising yourself. So no credentials, huh?

And you are introducing people to their true nature? A teacher is like a mirror, they directly reflect the students true nature, without qualifications though...
fun house.jpg


Greg,

I suggest you submit all your gripes to "Palzang" (John Buhmeyer). You can write to him care of the Arizona penitentiary system; he will be available there to answer your questions for the next 20 years.

He'd also like that picture, and your general aggressiveness towards whatever I happen to say. Unfortunately, you're too old for him to be interested in otherwise.

He said exactly what you're saying, using the exact same words! I'll find you the references, if you like.

Love!
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:49 pm

"Ken means perceive, sho means nature. Perceive your true nature."

Okay, that's Master Seung Sahn, who had big kensho/satori when he was on a meditation retreat in the mountains, in his twenties.

Master Hsi Yun, despite his intense practice, didn't experience kensho/satori until he was in his mid-fifties, but he left a similar account.

Hakuin Zenji claimed to have had 116 satoris in his life, and wrote a treatise on the importance of kensho.

It's true the terms are somewhat undefined, like most Japanese words. Still, the experience is always the same. What's the problem? If you've had it, you know. If you haven't you might be able to talk about it intelligently, but you don't know.

Still, "Don't-know" itself is the essence of Zen according to Seung Sahn.

The knowing we're talking about here doesn't conflict with that, because it's instantaneous, like knowing the sound of this breeze in the pines. I can know it instantly, but can I give it to you? I can only allude to it. However, with a certain type of effort I might be able to shock you into hearing it, then we both know it at once and together and all disputes effortlessly vanish.

As I understand the matter, you can't really even start to do Dzogchen/Atiyoga until you've already had kensho. You can do Zen -- but the Zen has to be intensive and real and it has to lead to kensho, otherwise it's just sitting around with a bunch of people on ass-cushions.

This seems uncontroversial. Maybe some people who do Soto Zen would disagree, but I'm not a Soto Zen person. My dharma name, Lao Hu, was given to me by a Rinzai teacher, which would make me Rinzai (I suppose).
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:50 pm

If I want to live in darkness
then a blind man is a perfect guide,
It takes someone that can see
to point out that I just have my eyes closed.

I'll find you the references, if you like.
Knock yourself out!
:namaste:
PS
I suggest you submit all your gripes to "Palzang" (John Buhmeyer). You can write to him care of the Arizona penitentiary system; he will be available there to answer your questions for the next 20 years.
It's time to get over your obsession with the KPC. It seems that everywhere you look, you only see enemies. You know, you are just like the KPC loonies: everywhere they look they see Cassidy.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby dharmagoat » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:51 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:Love!

Where?
May all beings be happy
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:54 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:If I want to live in darkness
then a blind man is a perfect guide,
It takes someone that can see
to point out that I just have my eyes closed.

I'll find you the references, if you like.
Knock yourself out!
:namaste:
PS
I suggest you submit all your gripes to "Palzang" (John Buhmeyer). You can write to him care of the Arizona penitentiary system; he will be available there to answer your questions for the next 20 years.
It's time to get over your obsession with the KPC. It seems that everywhere you look, you only see enemies. You know, you are just like the KPC loonies: everywhere they look they see Cassidy.


I'm serious about the "Palzang" business. You're talking just like him. Look into it. I wouldn't mention it unless your wording was pretty much exactly his wording. What does that tell you? Wake up and stop being so aggressive. Stop jumping from thread to thread just to stalk me. Okay? We're talking about matters that are interesting. Instead of trying to shut me down, if you can't handle what I say or don't want to listen, nobody's forcing you -- just go elsewhere! Smell some flowers. Do some Zen or something. Really. Love! Andrew
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:54 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:Love!

Where?


Right here! Goats are welcome too.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:02 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:Instead of trying to shut me down, just go elsewhere!
Asking somebody, that claims they are a teacher and charges $2000 to assist you achieve kensho/satori, for their qualifications is not an attempt to shut them down, it is a window of opportunity for them to prove their worth. The forum is under no obligation to allow people to peddle snake medicine. If what you say about your capacity/qualifications is true then just lay down the cards, show your hand. You have been called and it's time to prove you ain't bluffing.

It's got NOTHING to do with this Palzang character you are obsessed with. Anyway, even child hating wife beaters may have something intelligent and relevant to say, yah know?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Clarence » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:03 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:I'm serious about the "Palzang" business. You're talking just like him. Look into it. I wouldn't mention it unless your wording was pretty much exactly his wording. What does that tell you? Wake up and stop being so aggressive. We're talking about matters that are interesting. Instead of trying to shut me down, just go elsewhere! Smell some flowers. Do some Zen or something. Really. Love! Andrew


Now, now, Andrew, if your posts on this forum are an example of your realization then you are allowed to keep it. I don't agree with Greg's way of communicating much either but to compare him to a pedophile is a bit much (even if you say he only sounds like him the gist is still there).

Also, please don't proclaim love when your words are just angry diatribes. We've all let the KPC stuff go. Threads are closed and we've moved on. Now it is up to you to do the same.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:12 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:Instead of trying to shut me down, just go elsewhere!
Asking somebody, that claims they are a teacher and charges $2000 to assist you achieve kensho/satori, for their qualifications is not an attempt to shut them down, it is a window of opportunity for them to prove their worth. The forum is under no obligation to allow people to peddle snake medicine. If what you say about your capacity/qualifications is true then just lay down the cards, show your hand. You have been called and it's time to prove you ain't bluffing.

It's got NOTHING to do with this Palzang character you are obsessed with. Anyway, even child hating wife beaters may have something intelligent and relevant to say, yah know?
:namaste:



Actually, I'm not peddling anything. I just wanted to discuss Kensho and Satori. It's someone else who asked me about the specific services on my Web page, and I answered the question. Then you, esteemed colleague, jumped in (though you aren't even interested in Zen, right?) to tell me you're not impressed by my ability and regard me as a phony. Okay, that's fine. Go away now!

I am really not obsessed with "Palzang," however I do -- I confess it -- find his story intensely interesting. Maybe there's a thin line between obsession and intense interest. "Palzang" is a man who followed me around on websites and Twitter for a whole year telling me I was a phony, I was blind to real Enlightenment, &c &c. And he seemed so sure of it. Where is he now?

By the way, when I talk about "Palzang" I'm not talking about the KPC. "Palzang" isn't KPC anymore. He was stripped of his robes. He's now just an unhappy man who compulsively pursued me to tell me all about how I was a big phony, and when he wasn't doing that he abused children, and now he's in prison for the rest of his life more or less. I find that very interesting!
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:15 pm

Clarence wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:I'm serious about the "Palzang" business. You're talking just like him. Look into it. I wouldn't mention it unless your wording was pretty much exactly his wording. What does that tell you? Wake up and stop being so aggressive. We're talking about matters that are interesting. Instead of trying to shut me down, just go elsewhere! Smell some flowers. Do some Zen or something. Really. Love! Andrew


Now, now, Andrew, if your posts on this forum are an example of your realization then you are allowed to keep it. I don't agree with Greg's way of communicating much either but to compare him to a pedophile is a bit much (even if you say he only sounds like him the gist is still there).

Also, please don't proclaim love when your words are just angry diatribes. We've all let the KPC stuff go. Threads are closed and we've moved on. Now it is up to you to do the same.


Hey Clarence,

My posts on this forum are merely an example of my posts on this forum. Why should they be an example of anything else? Also, who says I'm angry? I was just laughing about Greg's last post. Maybe he's not even angry. That would be nice. Then we could just talk like human beings about what interests us!

love!
Andrew
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Clarence » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:19 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:
Hey Clarence,

My posts on this forum are merely an example of my posts on this forum. Why should they be an example of anything else? Also, who says I'm angry? I was just laughing about Greg's last post. Maybe he's not even angry. That would be nice. Then we could just talk like human beings about what interests us!

love!
Andrew


Hey Andrew,

When people use the f-word combined with exclamation marks, I assume they have anger.

Best, C
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:22 pm

There are basically the kinds of energetic techniques I teach people, if anyone is interested in anything but arguing and being quite condescending. I can't help it if people sometimes get Kensho while they're doing the stuff I show them. Maybe the techniques contain some power independent of whatever "merit" or "wisdom" I personally might have:
Last edited by Tara on Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: link removed
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:24 pm

Clarence wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:
Hey Clarence,

My posts on this forum are merely an example of my posts on this forum. Why should they be an example of anything else? Also, who says I'm angry? I was just laughing about Greg's last post. Maybe he's not even angry. That would be nice. Then we could just talk like human beings about what interests us!

love!
Andrew


Hey Andrew,

When people use the f-word combined with exclamation marks, I assume they have anger.

Best, C


Well, yesterday someone told me she won a professional award, and I instantly exclaimed: "That's F**CKING GREAT!"

Tell me -- was I angry?

By the way,

I F**CKING LOVE YOU, MAN!

Sincerely,

Andrew
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Jikan » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:48 pm

uhh...

I'm closing this thread because what's fit to be said about kensho & satori in a public forum has been said, and it's already devolving into self-promotion and poor hygiene.

Substantive issues related to this discussion can be raised in other threads or new ones.
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