Kensho and Satori

Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:13 pm

xabir wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone here had Kensho? What about Satori?

If so, does the whole universe seem different to you now? In what ways? Or is it pretty much the same as before?

If not, do you think you should experience Satori? Are you missing out on something, even though you do a lot of Zen and know a lot of Buddhist stuff, by not experiencing this?


You're this guy?



THE PRACTICE OF LIVING ZEN
or,
A DIRECT INTRODUCTION TO THE SUBTLE MYSTERY OF THE TRUE FLOWER

Q. What is it?

A. It's a two week intensive study with me, 10 hours of Skype or phone (or face to face, if you want to come to Oregon) plus texts, e-mails, &c.

Q. How much does it cost?
A. $2,000.

etc etc


Yes. What of it? I'm trying to get some of Genpo Roshi's clients. Believe it or not, there are people in the world who will only take Zen seriously, and do the work it takes to get kensho, if they have to pay for it! It's perverse, but that's how it is.

If you look at the whole posting, you'll note that I say, "If you don't have 2 grand, contact me and we'll work something out."
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:16 pm

Matylda wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone here had Kensho? What about Satori?

If so, does the whole universe seem different to you now? In what ways? Or is it pretty much the same as before?

If not, do you think you should experience Satori? Are you missing out on something, even though you do a lot of Zen and know a lot of Buddhist stuff, by not experiencing this?




What a strange question... why you do not ask your teacher?

basically realization should be a realization of no-self, selflesness. There is no should or should not... it is silly. For one thing for sure one is released from inner tension of clinging to the self, since it is clearly a construct or fabrication. For those who lack sharp faculty, there are stages, which go along deep understanding of profound selflessness of all phenomena. However in the real zen practice it is realization of buddhahood in an instant, just by clearly seeing ones nature. Or primordial nature. There is nothing beyond this natural state.

Kensho could be very easily mistaken for sort of stable state of meditation down to different experiences including nothingness etc. To avoid it one should know the key points of form and formless dhyanas. However those experiences are totally conditioned,in this sense fabricated. Kensho is what is original to anything, as it is said before your parents were born or before the universe was born. It is totally unconditioned state which is only known to those who realized it in a genuine way. And this unconditioned state is what is the nature of everything. Whether sentient or insentient.

Satori and kensho are used alternately though the original zen term is kensho. Satori is a term which appears in Chinese version of Sanskrit sutras right from the first translation ca. 2000 years ago and was used as what is translated into English as enlightenment. Kensho has different flavor and connotation. However I observed that today kensho is used if someone passes through koan or so. This is not what originally kensho meant. Passing koan or any other experience in zazen is actually irrelevant in zazen, and could be an obstacle when handled unskillfully. Any experiences are still on the level of baby, not really mature. And they almost do not include selflessness, causing one to grow nuts, or proud, simply in wrong way... That sort of thing we can compare to mathematics... if one learned number 1, and becomes overwhelmed by this pretending to be an expert in highest form of mathematics. This is silly.

Kenshi is an aim of zen practice. Any question about it, or should or should not, is misunderstanding of zazen and the whole zen path and goal.


Hey, I wasn't asking for instruction on the topic, nor for a historical-textual survey of the terms. This is the problem with "teachings." They pile up until one cannot see what is clearly in front of one's eyes.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby dharmagoat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:41 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:Believe it or not, there are people in the world who will only take Zen seriously, and do the work it takes to get kensho, if they have to pay for it! It's perverse, but that's how it is.

I have only heard this justification from those who are making the money. If it has any truth at all, it would only apply to a few buddhist students who have more cash than sense.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:48 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:Believe it or not, there are people in the world who will only take Zen seriously, and do the work it takes to get kensho, if they have to pay for it! It's perverse, but that's how it is.

I have only heard this justification from those who are making the money. If it has any truth at all, it would only apply to a few buddhist students who have more cash than sense.


I like your handle, by the way.

I get $100.00 USD per hour as a freelance writer. To coach a person full time for two weeks and to make sure they get it right -- that's intensive and it takes a lot of effort. So, of course I have to charge some money, unless I believe the person has such unbelievable potential that I'm driven to do it for nothing (which happens, too).

Also, I'm not teaching people Zen doctrines or Buddhist sutras. I'm showing them how to directly realize something that will help them via certain energetic techniques.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby dharmagoat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:58 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:I get $100.00 USD per hour as a freelance writer. To coach a person full time for two weeks and to make sure they get it right -- that's intensive and it takes a lot of effort. So, of course I have to charge some money, unless I believe the person has such unbelievable potential that I'm driven to do it for nothing (which happens, too).

Also, I'm not teaching people Zen doctrines or Buddhist sutras. I'm showing them how to directly realize something that will help them via certain energetic techniques.

Yes, I acknowledge this, and what you are offering could well be good value for money. My objection was to the claim that students won't value a teaching unless they have to pay for it.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:41 am

dharmagoat wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:I get $100.00 USD per hour as a freelance writer. To coach a person full time for two weeks and to make sure they get it right -- that's intensive and it takes a lot of effort. So, of course I have to charge some money, unless I believe the person has such unbelievable potential that I'm driven to do it for nothing (which happens, too).

Also, I'm not teaching people Zen doctrines or Buddhist sutras. I'm showing them how to directly realize something that will help them via certain energetic techniques.

Yes, I acknowledge this, and what you are offering could well be good value for money. My objection was to the claim that students won't value a teaching unless they have to pay for it.


Oh, well then I expressed myself poorly. I meant to say that there are some students who won't value a teaching unless they have to pay for it. Genpo Roshi's students, for example, who pay $6,000. for a weekend retreat with him, are all probably like this.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Quiet Heart » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:01 am

mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone here had Kensho? What about Satori?

If so, does the whole universe seem different to you now? In what ways? Or is it pretty much the same as before?

If not, do you think you should experience Satori? Are you missing out on something, even though you do a lot of Zen and know a lot of Buddhist stuff, by not experiencing this?


:smile:
Now that's the kind of question that shouldn't be answered by anyone but your teacher.
Since I am not a teacher, and really don't wish to be, perhaps the answer to your question would be to go there yourself, and see.
:smile:
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in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:20 am

Quiet Heart wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone here had Kensho? What about Satori?

If so, does the whole universe seem different to you now? In what ways? Or is it pretty much the same as before?

If not, do you think you should experience Satori? Are you missing out on something, even though you do a lot of Zen and know a lot of Buddhist stuff, by not experiencing this?


:smile:
Now that's the kind of question that shouldn't be answered by anyone but your teacher.
Since I am not a teacher, and really don't wish to be, perhaps the answer to your question would be to go there yourself, and see.
:smile:


I've been there myself. And I saw.

Smiley face.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:26 am

I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:34 am

Quiet Heart wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:Has anyone here had Kensho? What about Satori?

If so, does the whole universe seem different to you now? In what ways? Or is it pretty much the same as before?

If not, do you think you should experience Satori? Are you missing out on something, even though you do a lot of Zen and know a lot of Buddhist stuff, by not experiencing this?


:smile:
Now that's the kind of question that shouldn't be answered by anyone but your teacher.
Since I am not a teacher, and really don't wish to be, perhaps the answer to your question would be to go there yourself, and see.
:smile:


Also!

Please get rid of the picture of Hsi Yun.

It doesn't suit you, and it's a little offensive for me to see this picture of a great Zen Master attached to your words.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby dharmagoat » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:55 am

mujushinkyo wrote:Please get rid of the picture of Hsi Yun.

It doesn't suit you, and it's a little offensive for me to see this picture of a great Zen Master attached to your words.

It is very confusing when members of this forum provide images of their teachers as their avatars. I am just as guilty, my teacher is an inquisitive white goat.
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:17 am

dharmagoat wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:Please get rid of the picture of Hsi Yun.

It doesn't suit you, and it's a little offensive for me to see this picture of a great Zen Master attached to your words.

It is very confusing when members of this forum provide images of their teachers as their avatars. I am just as guilty, my teacher is an inquisitive white goat.


Ha ha!
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Matylda » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:17 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.


compulsively ? that is interesting way to put the matter in degrading terms... but it is rather simple. Once one is self made ''satori-man'', one ends up in the pit of self deceit. moreover if one tries and succeeds to draw others to ones distorted views, then more people will suffer from the ''satori-man'' deceit... then why compulsively talk that There is nobody who can teach you Satori?
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Jikan » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:07 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.


Because that's your teacher's unpleasant responsibility: to listen to you talk about your experiences so no one else has to.

:stirthepot:
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:13 pm

Jikan wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.


Because that's your teacher's unpleasant responsibility: to listen to you talk about your experiences so no one else has to.

:stirthepot:
And to have somebody that you trust and believe in to point out to you how wrong you are.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Jikan » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:13 pm

Putting the question differently...

if someone puts out his shingle as a professional kensho-inducer, shouldn't he be prepared for potential clients to ask to see his credentials before laying down $2000 on the promised delivery of goods & services. Are we back in "applied Zen" country, where a certain kind of cool, stable mindstate is fungible into improved performance at work (for leaders and producers)...?



sharpening stones, walking on coals
to improve your business acumen

So how about it: what are your credentials for providing an authentic kensho experiences to ordinary neurotics in search of a leg up on the pile, mujushinkyo?
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:21 pm

"There It Is!"
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:23 pm

Matylda wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.


compulsively ? that is interesting way to put the matter in degrading terms... but it is rather simple. Once one is self made ''satori-man'', one ends up in the pit of self deceit. moreover if one tries and succeeds to draw others to ones distorted views, then more people will suffer from the ''satori-man'' deceit... then why compulsively talk that There is nobody who can teach you Satori?


The Living Flame of Zen Realization.

Is there anything else really to say?
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby mujushinkyo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:25 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Jikan wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:I'd like to raise another issue.

Why, when Satori comes up, do people here start talking compulsively about a "teacher"?

There is nobody who can teach you Satori.


Because that's your teacher's unpleasant responsibility: to listen to you talk about your experiences so no one else has to.

:stirthepot:
And to have somebody that you trust and believe in to point out to you how wrong you are.
:namaste:


This mistake, that mistake,
Never take them away!
In the four seas, the waves subside;
A hundred rivers flow quietly to the sea.

The twelve bells of the staff tinkled up high;
Empty and silent is the road to the gate.
No, not empty and silent;
The enlightened man must take medicine
For the illness of “having no illness.”`
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Re: Kensho and Satori

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:31 pm

I see you have (unskillfully) avoided answering Jikans question and just continued advertising yourself. So no credentials, huh?

And you are introducing people to their true nature? A teacher is like a mirror, they directly reflect the students true nature, without qualifications though...
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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