Institutional Buddhism

[Malcolm]

we have to embrace renunciation

Not in Dzogchen.

You are correct that in dzogchen we do not have to embrace renunciation and in fact as a conceptualization it will get in the way of realization but consider the actual lives of people drowning in the poisons. If they were able to see the arisal of lust or anger as the adornment of wisdom and really rest in that then there would be no problem. But most people can't do that. They get carried away at some point. So for them dzogchen on the cushion and dzogchen view as much as possible but they will need some renunciation as a safety net. Otherwise some people are on a highwire and will endure some painful encounters with the ground.

Kirt

people need to understand their own condition, but they do not need canned religion.

[heart]

we have to embrace renunciation

Not in Dzogchen.

eh? how about the lodjongs in the Vima Nyinthig? that is real meaning of renunciation.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

we have to embrace renunciation

Not in Dzogchen.

eh? how about the lodjongs in the Vima Nyinthig? that is real meaning of renunciation.

/magnus

I see the first fout more as an encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things. But I don't see them as a encouraging a path of renunciation.

[Clarence]

I see the first fout more as an encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things. But I don't see them as a encouraging a path of renunciation.

What is not useless besides practicing?

[Adamantine]

However, I do believe there are quite a few more than the one you are promoting. . .

Sure, but we don't have a lot of time, and time is passing.

But if they didn't have the connection with ChNN, then time would be passing until they found their karmic Guru, even if they stayed with ChNN out of fear that time was passing... or isn't it? Anyway, I would have imagined you'd be of the opinion that the 4 thoughts was a trivial sutra approach for a Dzogchenpa!

[Pero]

This was said by Padmasambhava and Norbu Rinpoche mentions it often, it's an important practice. So you guys should be careful in what you say...

The onus is on the teacher's side to be honest. Conceptually deciding that Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous is a Buddha when all his actions indicate the contrary is just plain stupid and deluded. When Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous encourage their students into such beliefs, it just creates cults.

M

Sure, but that's not what you said at first.

[xylem]

"encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things" is the pith essence of renunciation even in the sutra tradition.
i'm starting to think people just want to fight here.
there is really only one dharma.

-xy

I see the first four (lojongs of vima nyigthig) more as an encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things. But I don't see them as a encouraging a path of renunciation.

[Malcolm]

However, I do believe there are quite a few more than the one you are promoting. . .

Sure, but we don't have a lot of time, and time is passing.

But if they didn't have the connection with ChNN, then time would be passing until they found their karmic Guru, even if they stayed with ChNN out of fear that time was passing... or isn't it?

Such a person would be like a man who did not like the shape the gold nugget he has found, and discards it to look for another, more attractive one.

[Malcolm]

This was said by Padmasambhava and Norbu Rinpoche mentions it often, it's an important practice. So you guys should be careful in what you say...

The onus is on the teacher's side to be honest. Conceptually deciding that Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous is a Buddha when all his actions indicate the contrary is just plain stupid and deluded. When Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous encourage their students into such beliefs, it just creates cults.

M

Sure, but that's not what you said at first.

Sure it is. I was saying that teachers who recognize that they are not realized should completely discourage their students from perceiving them as Buddhas.

[Blue Garuda]

This was said by Padmasambhava and Norbu Rinpoche mentions it often, it's an important practice. So you guys should be careful in what you say...

I am being very careful - and very truthful. The teachers I was referring to sucked people into a cult where any objection or even suggestion was treated as attacking a living Buddha. Imagine teachers with little training giving Action Tantra empowerments and others rushed into giving HYT empowerments at short notice because the last two 'holy beings' apparently got sacked for sexual predation.

Tibetan empowerments given within an organisation denying it is TB, offering no training in TB Vajra Master terms yet using the mystical allure of such empowerments to snare the unwary.

It is a VERY important practice, hence the abuses of it are even more heinous.

[Malcolm]

"encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things" is the pith essence of renunciation even in the sutra tradition.
i'm starting to think people just want to fight here.
there is really only one dharma.

-xy

I see the first four (lojongs of vima nyigthig) more as an encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things. But I don't see them as a encouraging a path of renunciation.

Not really xylem-- the motive is really quite different. In Sutrayāna teachings, desire for example is regarded as poison, etc. Dzogchen is not a path of renunciation, as you know. Suggesting that in order to understand Dzogchen you must engage in path of renunciation practices is, my opinion, just not so.

As to your other observation, yes it is true, people really mostly want to have arguments here. Hence my decreasing participation.

[Malcolm]

I see the first fout more as an encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things. But I don't see them as a encouraging a path of renunciation.

What is not useless besides practicing?

Enjoying your life, having a nice glass of wine, a juicy steak, a good woman (or man) at your side, nice music, flowers, herbs, etc.

All these things are important and necessary (depending on your preferences and health, etc.)

M

[Clarence]

I see the first fout more as an encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things. But I don't see them as a encouraging a path of renunciation.

What is not useless besides practicing?

Enjoying your life, having a nice glass of wine, a juicy steak, a good woman (or man) at your side, nice music, flowers, herbs, etc.

All these things are important and necessary (depending on your preferences and health, etc.)

M

Thanks. I will try to start understanding how that works in the paradigm of practicing Dzogchen. Still a little ways away from that.

[xylem]

malcolm-la...

i agree with you. you are correct.

i keep coming back to there being one dharma. for me, all of these conflicts between methodologies collapse in such an approach. take renunciation. i'd say all buddhists practice that in this spirit of there being on essential practice, one dharma. in the lower vehicles phenomena are avoided because they are poison. a more hidden understanding on the tantric path is renunciation is abandoning contaminated appearances. on a deeper level renunciation is withdrawing the winds into the central channel. far deeper it is the separation and thorough cut.

maybe it's just a difference in teaching styles of great lamas. my late root teacher and current root teacher always bring things to a single point.

-xy

"encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things" is the pith essence of renunciation even in the sutra tradition.
i'm starting to think people just want to fight here.
there is really only one dharma.

-xy

I see the first four (lojongs of vima nyigthig) more as an encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things. But I don't see them as a encouraging a path of renunciation.

Not really xylem-- the motive is really quite different. In Sutrayāna teachings, desire for example is regarded as poison, etc. Dzogchen is not a path of renunciation, as you know. Suggesting that in order to understand Dzogchen you must engage in path of renunciation practices is, my opinion, just not so.

As to your other observation, yes it is true, people really mostly want to have arguments here. Hence my decreasing participation.

[uan]

Sure, but we don't have a lot of time, and time is passing.

really? very linear concept. I guess we only have this one life then the flame goes out forever.

[Malcolm]

Sure, but we don't have a lot of time, and time is passing.

really? very linear concept. I guess we only have this one life then the flame goes out forever.

Flame? No? Opportunity, very likely.

[asunthatneversets]

really? very linear concept. I guess we only have this one life then the flame goes out forever.

All concepts are linear.

[greentreee]

really? very linear concept. I guess we only have this one life then the flame goes out forever.

All concepts are linear.

concepts are of mind,
as we move through precious time.
what's back there, is fine.

breath well.

[Pero]

The onus is on the teacher's side to be honest. Conceptually deciding that Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous is a Buddha when all his actions indicate the contrary is just plain stupid and deluded. When Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous encourage their students into such beliefs, it just creates cults.

M

Sure, but that's not what you said at first.

Sure it is. I was saying that teachers who recognize that they are not realized should completely discourage their students from perceiving them as Buddhas.

That's not the same thing. Above that you say that when the teacher's actions indicate the contrary. Below you say in all cases if they aren't realized. That would be wrong.

[Malcolm]

Hi Pero:

I think it is a total joke for unrealized teachers to permit their students to perceive them as Buddhas. This is encouraging people to believe in fantasies.


You can think it wrong all you like. That is what I think. So we will agree to disagree.

M