Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:40 am

jeeprs wrote:It's getting a little hysterical. People die scuba-diving. 3 people died this season on the same day, climbing Everest. But that's OK, it's not some 'creepy religious cult'.
Because it's not a creepy religious cult whereas Diamond Mountain is.
I am no fan of the teacher involved, in fact he always struck me as a phony. But somewhere in one of the stories here, it says there are 39 people on the 3-year retreat which is the backdrop for this story. Let us hope that they are well, and that their practice is fruitful, and that some good seeds come out of it, as well as this very sad story.
You expect an apple tree to sprout from a conium seed?
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Wayfarer » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:55 am

A creepy religious cult, which the victim had been expelled from.

And I don't know what a 'conium seed' is, but I would hope for the sake of those others involved in that retreat, that something good comes out of it. I hope that is a charitable view of it.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Blue Garuda » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:13 am

Reading of his 'Geshe' status (and endorsements by senior Gelugs which seem to have no documentation to support them) I can see that such things add to the allure and legitimacy in marketing the organisation.

However,even if he had been endorsed by HHDL himself at one time, it could not possibly excuse what took place thereafter.

To follow the allegory, even if you find a shiny ripe apple, would you want to eat a few months later when it is rotten to the core?
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Wayfarer » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:28 am

My point was only, spare a thought for those practitioners who have committed themselves to a three-year retreat. It is quite a commitment. They too are people just like us.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:21 pm

jeeprs wrote:My point was only, spare a thought for those practitioners who have committed themselves to a three-year retreat. It is quite a commitment. They too are people just like us.
Really, the best thing they could do is pack it up and go to a proper retreat. I have no doubt that they are commited and well intentioned but they are being lead down the garden path.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:32 pm

I imagine that this story has run its course now for the moment. It'll probably hang around Roach like a bad smell for the rest of his "career" and no doubt negatively impact his cred with the NYC yoga crowd. But the prosperity dharma racket is as big in S.E. Asia as the prosperity gospel is in the U.S. I don't see that being affected for him. I hope those who continue in the "retreat" remain safe and healthy physically and mentally.

Of course, we have yet to see what, if anything, Christie McNally does. If she returns to the limelight, I bet she'll be fairly pissed and looking for payback from Roach. I'd say there are plenty of publishers willing to provide a fat advance for her story. Roach's problems may only be beginning.
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:02 pm

IMO the only "good thing" that can come out of this story is that it's a wake-up call for everybody who is still following this teacher.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby LunaRoja » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:56 pm

I found this very interesting if you watch starting at minute 13:00 to 18:37 Michael Roach puts his spin on the publicity that is swirling around them right now....

http://www.justin.tv/aci_phoenix/b/320940889
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:24 pm

LunaRoja wrote:I found this very interesting if you watch starting at minute 13:00 to 18:37 Michael Roach puts his spin on the publicity that is swirling around them right now....

http://www.justin.tv/aci_phoenix/b/320940889


Very interesting. I loved the line "I am not saying I'm like Jesus but...".

Unfortunately this sounds like a very typical cultic repsonse - our enemies only hate us because what we are doing is so powerful and right. Where there is great dharma, there is great mara etc. I am amazed he said nothing about McNally or Thorson. In fact, knowing that this would be recorded for the internet you would think he would have said something.
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:50 pm

Yeah, it's a textbook cultish way of thinking. With this line of "argument" you can systematically immunize your system against any critical input from the outside. It's typical brainwash style that he doesn't respond to the content of the criticism, instead he demonizes it as negative forces which have been unleashed.

I'm not exactly familiar with the lists of criteria normally given in books on how to recognize a cult, but I think this should be listed as a major warning signal: the leader does not respond to the content of criticism but demonizes the criticism as an expression of ill will or even evil forces.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Adamantine » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:27 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:I'm not exactly familiar with the lists of criteria normally given in books on how to recognize a cult, but I think this should be listed as a major warning signal: the leader does not respond to the content of criticism but demonizes the criticism as an expression of ill will or even evil forces.


Yeah, I wonder how that line of defense would fly on the debate grounds. . .
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:26 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:Very interesting. I loved the line "I am not saying I'm like Jesus but..."
It's too bad he is not like Jesus, that way he could have raised Thorson from the dead and saved Thorson's family a mountain of unecessary grief! What a self-aggrandising creep!
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby username » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:23 pm

Those few great masters like HHDL, Karmapas, Sakya Trizin, Dudjom, Dilgo Khyentse, Trulshik, Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche etc. had/have great clarity for example recognizing tulkus, sensing or even seeing things on rare occasions about certain people and so on. Nevermind other apsects of their great clarity on power locations, prophecy, teachings, activity, etc. They have met some self appointed so called western masters and (fake) tertons etc. like Roach and several others but did not immediately condemn and dismiss them because there are different ways to subdue different malevolent reincarnated beings. Roach tried to pervert the Gelug order's vows and even pulled a stunt in Dharamsala despite being told not to by his master HHDL's office and in his US compound contniues to teach against the institutions of Tibetan Buddhism under the various school leaders. It is sad to see so much corruption and abuse over the decades by these western so called masters and their cults whitewashed by some westerners as insignificant.

It is sad to see this reborn inauspiscious spirit has set up yet another corrupt western mandala in the name of Tibetan Buddhism and some who still defend him in various ways and degrees. And causing to create bad press for Tibetan Buddhism online and in print on a large scale. Worst of all, sad to see someone die unneccessarily. But the way Roach, fake tertons and other fake masters have been dealt with over the long time by enlightened masters is the way to effectively subdue these beings for future with as little damage as possible. Also there are many dimensions a being occupies which he/she is unaware of and only realized masters see some of those and only a fully enlightened Buddha like the Victor Shakyamuni sees all of a being's many dimensions.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:04 pm

An interesting and broader analysis on spotting cults from a Buddhist perspective (inspired by the happenings at DM) http://tibetanaltar.blogspot.gr/2012/06 ... -amok.html
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby LunaRoja » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:55 pm

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby honestdboy » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:48 am




That is true for the police. The physical causes of death are now clear, but I want to hear what Lama Christie has to say after having some time to reflect. If she continues teaching with GMR, I doubt she will be looking at him with such loving eyes while he rambles on. :namaste:
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:05 am

honestdboy wrote:



That is true for the police. The physical causes of death are now clear, but I want to hear what Lama Christie has to say after having some time to reflect. If she continues teaching with GMR, I doubt she will be looking at him with such loving eyes while he rambles on. :namaste:


I don't think they'll be teaching side by side again. It certainly appears she has been utterly and totally disowned.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Knotty Veneer » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:36 pm

Over on the elephantjournal site I read a post saying that she was spotted in Katmandu in the last few days trying (unsuccessfully) to get an interview with Lama Zopa of the FMPT.

I imagine if she wanted to she could sell her story and cause a whole pile of trouble for Roach. But doing that may also give rise to a whole pile of trouble for herself. Who knows what her mental state is likely to be after this?
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:14 pm

History is supposed to be important as it enables us to learn from mistakes made in the past.

In the case of charismatic leaders, it seems there may always be people ready to see them as a deity or saviour, and even to kill or commit suicide for them.

When charismatic leaders are exposed, some followers crash and burn, but it seems many others will never believe that their saviour is foolish, mistaken or evil.

It's easy to be surprised at the ease with which people are recruited by cults, especially when they seem intelligent, but there really seems to be no correlation between IQ and EQ, and employers are increasingly seeking to find people with a high 'Emotional Quotient' as they realise clever people are not necessarily capable of good decisions.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby uan » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:23 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:Over on the elephantjournal site I read a post saying that she was spotted in Katmandu in the last few days trying (unsuccessfully) to get an interview with Lama Zopa of the FMPT.




if this is true, it would seem it could be a positive step forward for her.
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