Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:58 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 pm
Posts: 739
Location: Magga ~ Path to Liberation.
1) What is exactly is Dzogchen?..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Posts: 1434
Location: Globe
Wesley1982 wrote:
1) What is exactly is Dzogchen?..

Well Wes,

It is a very direct teaching about Buddhahood and a persons nature. It's the easy and direct way to Buddha.

Kevin

_________________
ओं मणिपद्मे हूं

http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
http://www.ripple.org
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 pm
Posts: 739
Location: Magga ~ Path to Liberation.
What makes it statistically more "popular" on Dharma Wheel?..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm
Posts: 1428
Perhaps we ought to say that Dzogchen is the fast, direct, and effortless way to Buddhahood.

H.H. the Dalai Lama has stated for example that Dzogchen is not easy.

And even though Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche wouldn't disagree with the fact that Dzogchen is effortless, I think that he has also said or implied that Dzogchen is not easy.

Not to nitpick, it's just that I think that this is an important subtle distinction to make.

You probably already know what is meant here. I'm saying it for those who are new to the Dzogchen teachings like me.

:anjali:


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Posts: 1434
Location: Globe
Lhug-Pa wrote:
Perhaps we ought to say that Dzogchen is the fast, direct, and effortless way to Buddhahood.

As H.H. the Dalai Lama has stated, Dzogchen is not easy.

And even though Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche wouldn't disagree with the fact that Dzogchen is effortless, I think that he has also said or implied that Dzogchen is not easy.

Not to nitpick, it's just that I think that this is an important subtle distinction to make.

You probably already know what is meant here. I'm saying it for those who are new to the Dzogchen teachings like me.

:anjali:

Whatever response I say, I feel like I am giving too much away.

It's my mercury transit. Not favorable at the moment for communications.

Kevin

_________________
ओं मणिपद्मे हूं

http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
http://www.ripple.org
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm
Posts: 1428
Not that I really have an idea of what you would say; yet regardless, I should have noted that what I posted may be a generalization that might not necessarily be true for everyone.

In the Dzogchen teachings it is said that the moments when one has Rigpa of the Nature of Mind, is when Dzogchen is effortless. Yet also that for some it is not always so easy to have Rigpa of the effortless Natural State in every moment. And as Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has said, the Dzogchen teaching is not Dzogchen; Dzogchen is our Real Nature.

And yeah I should pay more attention to my astrology as well. I've got the Dzogchen Community astrological-calendar books right here that I don't utilize quite enough. Thanks for the reminder. :idea:


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Posts: 1999
Location: France
Dzogchen is at the same time the object, the path and the fruit.

In Buddhism it is based on the testament of Garab Dorjé, the 3 statements:
1) Direct Introduction
2) Not remain in darkness
3) Progress until full stabilization

It means that it starts with the Direct Introduction received by a real Dzogchen Master ... there is no other entry point. What ever was your path before has no effect on Dzogchen.
Once introduced, Dzogchen practitioner goes on eliminating all doubts and progress until all doubts are eliminated.

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1444
Wesley1982 wrote:
1) What is exactly is Dzogchen?..


Glad to see you inquiring about dzogchen. It's a beautiful teaching. Hope you pursue your interest... Teachers like Chögyal Namkhai Norbu have communities set up so that you can receive teachings and stay connected to the community/him through webcasts etc... (I know you've said having access to a teacher/community has been an issue for you due to your location).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Posts: 1030
Location: Southern Oregon
Wesley1982 wrote:
What makes it statistically more "popular" on Dharma Wheel?..


I think this is partly due to the fact that a substantial number of DW members are students of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, a really innovative and great teacher of Dzogchen. As Dzogchen is the main approach of these people, as well as of Dzogchen practitioners in general, these people congregate here to pose questions and fraternize with others whose path is common to theirs. It appears that a lot of people who visit the Dzogchen forum are intrigued and turned on by the discussions these practitioners have, and by what they've heard here about Dzogchen, and as a result many have decided to pursue Dzogchen teachings themselves, further augmenting the discussion. So I guess you could say a lot of people seem to have a karmic connection to Dzogchen.

Then, there is also the fact that Dzogchen is by nature very iconoclastic and non-institutional; by this I don't mean it's polemical, but that it's fiercely practical and eminently concerned with direct, personal experience rather than concepts and hierarchies. As such, it often makes statements about the limits of being conditioned by institutions--as opposed to simply making use of them according to one's circumstances--and that sometimes really gets some heavily conditioned people's goats. So that also prompts a lot of debate.

Lastly, probably a lot of us Dzogchen practitioners start out thinking we know everything and making lots of provocative statements and assumptions that also incite debate haha. But I think a lot of the debate has been constructive--or at least eventually turned constructive--in that it has helped people realize and come to terms with their assumptions and other aspects of their relative condition that form their circumstances and limitations.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Posts: 1999
Location: France
:good: ... well said

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 pm
Posts: 739
Location: Magga ~ Path to Liberation.
asunthatneversets wrote:
(I know you've said having access to a teacher/community has been an issue for you due to your location).


Distance and location issue is not much of a problem if your teacher/guru can communicate to you through the manifestation of dharma practice.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Wesley1982 wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
(I know you've said having access to a teacher/community has been an issue for you due to your location).


Distance and location issue is not much of a problem if your teacher/guru can communicate to you through the manifestation of dharma practice.



There are several upcoming webcast with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:50 pm
Posts: 16
Malcolm wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
(I know you've said having access to a teacher/community has been an issue for you due to your location).


Distance and location issue is not much of a problem if your teacher/guru can communicate to you through the manifestation of dharma practice.



There are several upcoming webcast with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.


Here's Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's webcast calendar:
http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachings/webcastcalendar/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Posts: 1999
Location: France
The perfect thread :thumbsup:

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Posts: 1110
Wesley1982 wrote:
1) What is exactly is Dzogchen?..


Tashi delek,

What Dzogchen realy is that is difficult to answer, but the link below can give you an idea that when a certain vision is not correct in Dzogchen, then this is called a mistake. To repair this mistake is to correct the point of vision and not to do prostrations, mantra recitation etc.

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=8307


Hope this helps

Mutsog Marro
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 pm
Posts: 739
Location: Magga ~ Path to Liberation.
2) Does correct Dzogchen practice produce a visible buddha?..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Posts: 1110
Wesley1982 wrote:
2) Does correct Dzogchen practice produce a visible buddha?..



Tashi delek,

During the practice of Dzogchen, can one experience visons like thigles and inside these thigles can be present, a Buddha or Mandala or the A,We let them all for what they are, so they can go back / dissolve into empty Nature. Thigles can also be empty, only full coloured (multi coloured) or 1 colour.

Visions are not produced but are more self emanating without any cause.

Mutsog marro
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 pm
Posts: 739
Location: Magga ~ Path to Liberation.
3) It seems like the world of Buddhism produces a garden variety of different types of Buddhists, why would Dzogchen be suitable for me?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Posts: 1110
Wesley1982 wrote:
3) It seems like the world of Buddhism produces a garden variety of different types of Buddhists, why would Dzogchen be suitable for me?

`


Tashi delek,

Motivation, that is mostly a personal case, wherein nobody can give you a hint what to do. Everything needs its investigation and your level of understanding can tell you automaticly for what to decide. Tantra could also be ok for you in advance to Dzogchen. If you have less time and are very motivated then i would say try it out Dzogchen. Go to a qualified Dzogchen Master and follow there his advice. Dzogchen is IMO the best way to get result, but that is personal seen.

Mainpoint is that the things you do bring yourself result / emancipation, a comfortable feeling.


Mutsog marro
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am
Posts: 541
Wesley1982 wrote:
2) Does correct Dzogchen practice produce a visible buddha?..


Dear Wesley, all and ALL,

Onto the Lion's screens,

Wesley, please forgive me for a long wordy answer that may appear to wander off the point, but it all will make sense eventually. My 2 cent advice is not to let anything go by which you do not understand. Get a dollar store spiral notebook and write down any questions or words that you do not understand, as they arise.

Your question is one of those questions that as soon as you say anything, someone is going to, quite correctly, say something else with an argument that challenges whatever you have said, because what you have said is not true from their point of view. The other side of this, is that what they are claiming may not be true from your point of view and so you have these wonderful view mash-ups on Dharma Wheel. Everyone is saying that the blind man's elephant of Dzogchen is the trunk or foot or side or tail, that they have experience with. You could frame it differently and also say that Dzogchen is an evolving form with no fixed "sum of parts" but a totality defined by the living experiences of all who practice it. In the end, each of us has to work out what is true, and what works, according to our own individual, doing our best, experience and get through the night (and the day).

So with the understanding that I am giving only one man's small and narrow answer: this is what is true and workable from my personal experience.

First. there is no absolute as to what is correct or incorrect Dzogchen practice. Whatever turns the wheel - whatever furthers your realization, is correct Dzogchen practice. For you, at one point in your life, having a practice that produces a visible Buddha may be correct and at another point it may be not correct, and the same for anyone. If you have a root Teacher then that Teacher might tell you what to practice. When you report back to that teacher, the results of your practice, then that root teacher may tell you that what you are seeing, and doing is correct or not. So from this point of view, in the context of advice from your Teacher, an experience of seeing a visible Buddha could be thought of as being correct or not correct for your practice at that time.

Then,--- if you are asking whether there are practices in Dzogchen that can produce the subjective experience of seeing a Buddha, then the answer is yes. My view of the elephant is that as a Dzogchen practitioner, I am free to make use of, and apply, any practice, from any level or tradition, (hopefully with the advice of my root Teacher) that I feel will further my realization. This means that if I want to use creative visualization and absorption practice from the view of Dzogchen, then I can do this on the subject of a Buddha; Shakyamuni, Medicine, Maitraiya, Dhyani or other, and I will see that Buddha in my practice. At first, seeing this Buddha may be supported by looking at a Thanka or picture, but then I may see that same Buddha in practice, without a support.

Visualization is like when you close your eyes for a moment and then open them and repeat. When you close your eyes, whatever you were looking at stays in your mind, as a visual representation, for an instant, and then starts to fade. Learning how to maintain that kind of visual image is visualization. There is a sudden system where the image you want to visualize comes into your presence all at once, and then there is a gradual system where you build up the image from a lotus, sun and moon disc with a seed syllable on it, which then turns into the Buddha, and then you add all the details, one by one. Your root Teacher will tell you of this, and what is right for you. Will this visualization seem real to you? It might. There is one urban legend about a literal minded practitioner who was found, very hungry, in his cave by his Teacher. When asked why he did not go out and get food, the practitioner replied that he had been doing Yamantaka practice and could not get his large horns through the door. So maybe you might see a Buddha in front of you which appears as real, or you might see yourself as a Buddha that appears as real. Are they really real, well maybe in a certain way. If you do the practice, you will see for yourself.

Then --- there are the practices of sky gazing, Togal and dark retreat in which seeing a Buddha may occur spontaneously. Your Dzogchen root Teacher will tell you about these practices at the right time.

Then there is also the question as to whether a Buddha, that you see in your practice, could be seen by somebody else or by everybody else: maybe yes in a certain way.

It should also be noted that you can have the Dzogchen principle practice of integrating with your "instant presence, 24/7 - resting in your "natural" state, without ever seeing a Buddha.

Hope this is of use to you and / or someone. Suggest you keep your questions coming until you have answers you are happy with.

Good fortune to all and All.

ob


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: qwerty13, Stewart and 25 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group