Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

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Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:47 am

Dude, seriously, when can we just get back to discussing Dzogchen in the context of just living our lives as Dzogchen practitioners and not as it relates to blah blah blah about Dzogchen being or not being stand alone/Buddhist/possible to be practiced by non-Buddhists/gradual/superior/ and any number of other lame topics? Some people had some good points which others either couldn't relate to, or they misunderstood, or they understood and just plain disagreed. At this point there's nothing more that can be said to reconcile those differing views, and there doesn't need to be. But those of us whose main focus is Dzogchen could surely find a lot more interesting things to talk about re: Dzogchen. Surely I'm not the only one who's bored to tears with this forum lately.
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Tara » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:53 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:... Surely I'm not the only one who's bored to tears with this forum lately.


Sorry you are bored. You are not obliged to read threads which hold no interest for you and there is nothing to stop you starting threads.

Regards,
It's not a competition. It's a choice.
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Matylda » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:56 am

What happened on dzogchen forum has nothing to do with dzogchen or anything... I withdrew from comments, however reading it was pretty sad. Specially that claims were put by some old or experienced...
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Pero » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:01 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:... Surely I'm not the only one who's bored to tears with this forum lately.

You're not... I also feel sad about the whole thing though...
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Paul » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:02 am

Hi Pema - I agree 100%. It's getting daft.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Simon E. » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:35 am

" Boredom is anger unexpressed " Jung.
If so...why anger ?
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Sönam » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:58 am

I agree that everything has been said on the subject ... and that in the end there is no one to convince.

but of course I cannot agree with Matylda's claim : "reading it was pretty sad. Specially that claims were put by some old or experienced ..." ... I do not understand the term "sad" used in that context.

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Astus » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:18 pm

I think that as long as it is taboo to talk about Dzogchen itself, all there is to talk about is X related to (whatever meaning you attribute to) Dzogchen.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Simon E. » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:30 pm

I dont think " taboo" is quite right Astus. It is simply not possible to do more than talk AROUND Dzogchen.
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby alpha » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:50 pm

endless talk about the taste of chocolate.
pointing that there is chocolate out there waiting to be tasted is good though...
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Astus » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:52 pm

Simon E. wrote:I dont think " taboo" is quite right Astus. It is simply not possible to do more than talk AROUND Dzogchen.


When you say "around Dzogchen", you must already have an idea what Dzogchen is. If you have no idea, then there is nothing to talk around either.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:23 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Dude, seriously, when can we just get back to discussing Dzogchen in the context of just living our lives as Dzogchen practitioners and not as it relates to blah blah blah about Dzogchen being or not being stand alone/Buddhist/possible to be practiced by non-Buddhists/gradual/superior/ and any number of other lame topics? Some people had some good points which others either couldn't relate to, or they misunderstood, or they understood and just plain disagreed. At this point there's nothing more that can be said to reconcile those differing views, and there doesn't need to be. But those of us whose main focus is Dzogchen could surely find a lot more interesting things to talk about re: Dzogchen. Surely I'm not the only one who's bored to tears with this forum lately.



Tashi delek,

Don' t see here any lame topics. All topics are very educative, i can learn a lot of those different kind of view points. Like we saw do we deal here only with the so called "minor" differences regarding Dzogchen and Dzogchen. Subtle misunderstandings about the Dzogchen View can be corrected easily, if they are recognised / known as such. Big misunderstandings about Dzogchen are due to a low level of understanding and maybe a better feeling would be in another Kaya. Dzogchen is no missionary task, or to pull persons over their line (of understanding). If the(ir) karma is ripened then the person can understand and know. Never before and one shouldn' t force others to go over their border lines of understanding, that will cause frust. :o

Well in Dzogchen there are mostly no winners and losers, if we take the Nature into consideration. There are certain approaches to reach the realisation about Nature. Here is no shorter or longer, it depends upon the level of understanding about the Dzogchenpa's Nature.

So there are a lot of topics which could be discussed and the key point is that unrelated topics should be seen as OFF TOPIC :offtopic: and be placed somewhere else under a different heading. So we keep the topic clean and understandable...... But that is up to the Mods to do so. ;)

Mutsog Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:37 pm

I've not been bored at all, quite the contrary, but sometimes I've been frustrated as conversations about the practices seem to be interwoven with other conversations about what is and what is not an acceptable approach to Dzogchen for a Buddhist or non-Buddhist etc etc.

I suggested that a way through this may be to start a thread specifically for practice questions, but as I have no guidance to offer personally, it would need someone who does have such knowledge to perform that act of kindness. Then, if it is derailed by the same conversation about Buddhist/not Buddhist the mods can just dive in delete or move it.

I see this happening already and I would ask members to consider the workload of volunteer Mods who are faced with splitting, merging etc. because people can't seem to stick to the topic.

Surely we now know what people's views are. It's a bit like watching a baggage carousel at an airport where people seem keen to take their bag off and then put it back on again because they're having so much fun experiencing it going round and round. ;)
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:26 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:I see this happening already and I would ask members to consider the workload of volunteer Mods who are faced with splitting, merging etc. because people can't seem to stick to the topic.

Surely we now know what people's views are. It's a bit like watching a baggage carousel at an airport where people seem keen to take their bag off and then put it back on again because they're having so much fun experiencing it going round and round. ;)



Tashi delek,

Yes remarkable that people cannot stick to the topic. Sure the Mods could be more attentive in splitting the topic and make a new topic out of it.
It would be nice if a topic would be explained in one way, without unnescessary interruptions.

Also the never ending returning same topics / questions, must be seen as off topic and be directed to the sub-forum where this was discussed earlier. One very famous always returning topic was Mahamudra and Dzogchen. :D

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Simon E. » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:29 pm

Astus wrote:
Simon E. wrote:I dont think " taboo" is quite right Astus. It is simply not possible to do more than talk AROUND Dzogchen.


When you say "around Dzogchen", you must already have an idea what Dzogchen is. If you have no idea, then there is nothing to talk around either.


No...I am not just being contrary. Ideas about Dzogchen do not help at all... :smile:
All we can do is to point to our experiences. And risk being misunderstood.
Which means in my case my input into the forum will be self limited. You can only describe your own experiences so many times before they induce even in yourself a state of ennui.
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Jikan » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:36 pm

I am not bored now nor have I been. I appreciate the urgency of the activity in the forum in recent weeks: it's been an object lesson in how the mind works and the perils and possibilities of public discourse on teh interwebz
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Tara » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:36 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Yes remarkable that people cannot stick to the topic. Sure the Mods could be more attentive in splitting the topic and make a new topic out of it.


It would be extremely beneficial if all members made a concerted effort to stay on topic.

For your information a considerable amount of time is spent in splitting and merging topics and creating new topics for the "off topic" posts removed from threads as well the general cleaning up of threads etc. Currently on average more than 300 new posts are made everyday across all forums which means there is necessarily a lot of reading to be done before any splitting/merging takes place. The team are all volunteers and as such have a limited amount of time to dedicate to cleaning up threads along with all the other tasks which are undertaken to maintain this forum like dealing with trolls and spammers etc

Also the never ending returning same topics / questions, must be seen as off topic..


Newcomers for example will often ask questions which may have already been asked or may start a new topic which has already been discussed, this can be resolved in part if all members utilize the "Search" function more often to check whether a particular topic exists or whether a similar question has already been asked etc. before hitting the enter button.

.. and be directed to the sub-forum where this was discussed earlier.


Any members, not just the team, can be of benefit here too by redirecting or giving links to relevant posts/topics.

Regards,
It's not a competition. It's a choice.
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Astus » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:20 pm

Simon E. wrote:No...I am not just being contrary. Ideas about Dzogchen do not help at all... :smile:
All we can do is to point to our experiences. And risk being misunderstood.
Which means in my case my input into the forum will be self limited. You can only describe your own experiences so many times before they induce even in yourself a state of ennui.


Ideas about Dzogchen can't help? They are all the words ever uttered and written down. How could they be useless?

As for the risk of being misunderstood, everyone takes that risk all the time, whether here on the forum or in other communication forms. But, unlike in case of a video or book, people here can ask back.

It's not only your experience you can describe. There are teachings one has heard and studied but not yet mastered oneself. They can still be told to others, either by quote or link.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby Simon E. » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:25 pm

Actually many of them cant Astus. Not without breaking samaya.
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Re: Anyone else bored to tears with this Dzogchen forum lately?

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:01 pm

This board ebbs and flows, and I'm sure what may seem boring to some is very exciting to others out there, afterall one person's trash is another person's treasure. Peaks and troughs, everything balances out in the end (or if one views it from the right vantage point).
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