My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:42 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:You hold some beliefs about karma and you believe I should hold those beliefs also. In other words, you're in possession of the truth about what's good or bad, right or wrong, ego or not ego! Come on. Wake up.
You threw out the Anglo-American thing and I threw it straight back at you. Now you are crying foul? So you think karma has nothing to do with it? Fine by me! Isn't strange that I don't have KPC threatening me and Feds breaking down my door? I wonder why not? Luck? Fate? God? Causes and conditions?

You choose your explanation and I'll choose mine.
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:namaste:


Wow. You're crazy.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:50 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:Yes, that worked so well for institutional Buddhism in Tibet. After centuries of sweeping corruption under the rug, constant political plotting against other schools and living off the largesse of the Chinese emperors, the karmic situation ripens and look at what happened to the country since 1959?
Quite irrelevant. In the one case we are talking about the invasion of one country by another and in the other we are talking about an "internal" problem in a religious institution.


Quite relevant. You put forward that ignoring the problem is an appropriate response based on "centuries of experience". I am pointing out that the centuries of experience in Tibet of doing so were not particularly successful in the long term. It was precisely unquestioning fealty to feudal elites and the Tibetan manifestation of what we would call "football hooliganism" that set up the eventual destruction of the country. You are welcome to your (imagined) Shangri-la. I don't want to live there.

gregkavarnos wrote: So what? I mean tell that to the thirty something retreatants (and hundreds of sponsors) at DM and the thousands of NKT followers. Like really... you think they give a sh*t that it doesn't have HHDL's seal of approval?
:namaste:


No, but if some of the millions of people that have a good impression of His Holiness do not go down that path because of his expressed concern, that is a very good thing. One can only do so much to prevent people from doing stupid things, but one must try. In the day and age of the Internet, basing communications strategies on what (barely) worked in the day of horseback and footmessengers is beyond silly.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Clarence » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:56 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:You hold some beliefs about karma and you believe I should hold those beliefs also. In other words, you're in possession of the truth about what's good or bad, right or wrong, ego or not ego! Come on. Wake up.
You threw out the Anglo-American thing and I threw it straight back at you. Now you are crying foul? So you think karma has nothing to do with it? Fine by me! Isn't strange that I don't have KPC threatening me and Feds breaking down my door? I wonder why not? Luck? Fate? God? Causes and conditions?

You choose your explanation and I'll choose mine.
no doz.jpg

:namaste:


Wow. You're crazy.


Now, now. Just ignore Greg. He is from Greece and they are all a little emotional there at the moment. Can't really blame him for it. ;)
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:24 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:Quite relevant. You put forward that ignoring the problem is an appropriate response based on "centuries of experience".
No I didn't and I also said nothing about feudal Tibet being a Shangri-la, I just explained why they do what they do. The rest is just projection on your behalf.

gregkavarnos wrote:No, but if some of the millions of people that have a good impression of His Holiness do not go down that path because of his expressed concern, that is a very good thing. One can only do so much to prevent people from doing stupid things, but one must try. In the day and age of the Internet, basing communications strategies on what (barely) worked in the day of horseback and footmessengers is beyond silly.
The path that people tread is based on their karma and not on the words of HHDL.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:27 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:Wow...
Care to elucidate or are you satisfied with just throwing out the ad hom? I explained my positio to you and that's all you can come up with in reply?
Clarence wrote:Now, now. Just ignore Greg. He is from Greece and they are all a little emotional there at the moment. Can't really blame him for it. ;)
Thanks for the thinly disguised patronising and irrelevant put down.
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Clarence » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:39 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:Wow...
Care to elucidate or are you satisfied with just throwing out the ad hom? I explained my positio to you and that's all you can come up with in reply?
Clarence wrote:Now, now. Just ignore Greg. He is from Greece and they are all a little emotional there at the moment. Can't really blame him for it. ;)
Thanks for the thinly disguised patronising and irrelevant put down.
:namaste:


Oh, come on Greg, you basically told the guy that he himself was responsible for having the FBI raid his house at 3 in the morning.

But, you are welcome otherwise.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Jinzang » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:13 pm

When you find yourself in an unpleasant situation caused by other people, by all means get out of it if you can. But when you can't, it doesn't help to get angry and slander the people who are causing you problems. You are only creating more suffering for yourself, now and later. Instead, if you contemplate that your problem that it is the result of previous bad karma or use it to develop compassion for others who also suffer, or even better, for the people who are causing you problems, you can turn a problem into an asset. That's what the Mind Training teachings are about, using the many difficulties we all face as a source of spiritual benefit instead of harm.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:27 pm

Clarence wrote:Oh, come on Greg, you basically told the guy that he himself was responsible for having the FBI raid his house at 3 in the morning.
No I didn't, that's your interpretation of what I said. I said that causes and conditions lead to his house being raided, causes and conditions that do not exist for me or anybody else discussing this issue. I also asked him if it was not causes and conditions then what was it? To which he replied that I am crazy. :shrug:
So who exactly is being overly emotional?
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:36 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Clarence wrote:Oh, come on Greg, you basically told the guy that he himself was responsible for having the FBI raid his house at 3 in the morning.
No I didn't, that's your interpretation of what I said. I said that causes and conditions lead to his house being raided, causes and conditions that do not exist for me or anybody else discussing this issue. I also asked him if it was not causes and conditions then what was it? To which he replied that I am crazy. :shrug:
So who exactly is being overly emotional?
:namaste:


Exactly, and if it was a woman that had been raped you would have said the causes and conditions were that her dress was too short. We get it.

Must do everything but hold fallible, human institutions to account simply because they bear the name "buddhist" like some sort of "Get Out of Jail Free" card. Outstanding.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:45 pm

Jinzang wrote:When you find yourself in an unpleasant situation caused by other people, by all means get out of it if you can. But when you can't, it doesn't help to get angry and slander the people who are causing you problems. You are only creating more suffering for yourself, now and later. Instead, if you contemplate that your problem that it is the result of previous bad karma or use it to develop compassion for others who also suffer, or even better, for the people who are causing you problems, you can turn a problem into an asset. That's what the Mind Training teachings are about, using the many difficulties we all face as a source of spiritual benefit instead of harm.


Whoa! Slow down. Slander? When did I slander anybody?

Let's imagine you're walking down the street and a group of Buddhists attacks you. They begin punching and kicking you and calling you by someone else's name. "Bill," maybe. At first you tell them you're not Bill. Liar! they scream, and hit you harder. Then you beg them to stop, and they beat you even more mercilessly. Then you go into a state of equanimity and just accept that you're going to get hurt. But as soon as they note you've stopped caring about the beating, they turn on the friends who were with you, and begin beating them. When you realize this, you start insulting them in order to draw the attention back to yourself. Later on, the Buddhist group claims that your harsh language proves you deserved the beating, even though they admit you weren't this "Bill" character.

That's not just a metaphor. It's the reality of what happened. And I didn't just get beaten up. I almost got killed by nervous federal agents armed with automatic weapons in my own home.

Wake up, man. This Lojong thing was used as mind control by the Tibetan feudal elite -- no different than the "love thy neighbor" talk of feudal Christianity. It's a crude theory of karma. Really, in my view, it's not even Buddhist.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby swampflower » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:52 pm

This thread stinks like a big pile of bull dung.
Just my opinion.
How about closing this, please.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:53 pm

Clarence wrote:[
Now, now. Just ignore Greg. He is from Greece and they are all a little emotional there at the moment. Can't really blame him for it. ;)


Of course. Greeks . . .

And there I was, just shaking my ass in my short skirt, karmically speaking. The Buddhists just couldn't help themselves.

Another way of looking at this KPC/FBI situation -- and this one is entirely compatible with Tibetan teachings -- is that my truly miraculous and excellent karma has put me in the enviable position of being able to put a stop to the criminal activities of a malicious pseudo-Buddhist cult, even if I had to take some heat to do so. Due to my compassionate and selfless work, these nastily-behaving lizards may yet achieve a better rebirth, find a more competent Guru endowed with sound teachings and authentic Tantra techniques, and attain Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi in only ten kalpas rather than ten billon.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:58 pm

swampflower wrote:This thread stinks like a big pile of bull dung.
Just my opinion.
How about closing this, please.


Maybe you could elaborate, and take some responsibility for what's just your opinion by testing it for its soundness in a public venue.

Or, you could just call for the feudal authorities to protect you from what you don't want to know.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby swampflower » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:09 am

I repeat this stinks!
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:16 am

swampflower wrote:I repeat this stinks!


So my sincere and open letter to the Venerable Gyatrul Rinpoche stinks?

In the Surangama Sutra we read that contemplating the nature of odors can lead to Awakening. The method is as follows: "Is this stink in my nostrils? Or is it in my consciousness of the stink? Or is it in the air? Or is it in the object that supposedly stinks? Or is it in a particular state of the object at this moment?" Buddha says that by inquiring directly into any given phenomenon in this way you can suddenly wake up to the Inherent Mind-Nature that sees, hears, smells, &c. If you simply try to avoid the stink, or to screen it out, or run away from it, or get someone to dispose of it for you, then you are evading your karma, which is to fully experience this-stink-right-here-now!

I hope those indications help you to awaken quickly so as to become a great Bodhisattva devoted selflessly to waking up all beings and ending the futile "name-and-blame spin cycle" of Samsara.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby swampflower » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:24 am

I would not say necessarily that your sincere (your words) and open letter stinks, however if that was your intent this would have ended there.
I would personally be ashamed to post an open letter to a respected teacher and then pile all the BS on top of my letter.
That is about as clear as I can be.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Nemo » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:17 am

What stinks is that Alyce Zeoli still has any credibility. What stinks is that when William Cassidy tried to blow the whistle on the illegal, immoral and cultish behavior of KPC they turned him into a villain. He was invited to help and had no idea what a nest of vipers KPC had become. What stinks is that Nydia Alexander and her father were hounded and punished for throwing child molesters out of a rental property. What stinks is that when confronted by Palzang and Gonpo’s pedophilia she decided to cover it up and punish the messengers.

The truth does stink. That an innocent man went to jail. That a so called Buddhist Sangha devolved into black magicians by casting curses on their enemies. That a teacher has stolen money for stupas and the ordained to live like a queen for decades. That a quarter of a million of that money went into malicious prosecutions against innocent people. They cannot even apologize for threatening the wrong person. They hide and watch and scheme. Unable to defend their horrible actions.

The truth has come for you KPC. To say nothing now is to break the spirit of all my Samayas.

I wonder if that boy’s parents are considering a civil suit? I sincerely hope so. Then you are well and truly finished.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:54 am

swampflower wrote:I would not say necessarily that your sincere (your words) and open letter stinks, however if that was your intent this would have ended there.
I would personally be ashamed to post an open letter to a respected teacher and then pile all the BS on top of my letter.
That is about as clear as I can be.


That's not very clear. So I'm sorry that's as clear as you can be. What's the BS I've piled on top of my letter? I am answering questions, aren't I?

Who are you to know what my intent is, anyhow? Do you read minds? Are you supernaturally wise?
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:59 am

Nemo wrote:What stinks is that Alyce Zeoli still has any credibility. What stinks is that when William Cassidy tried to blow the whistle on the illegal, immoral and cultish behavior of KPC they turned him into a villain. He was invited to help and had no idea what a nest of vipers KPC had become. What stinks is that Nydia Alexander and her father were hounded and punished for throwing child molesters out of a rental property. What stinks is that when confronted by Palzang and Gonpo’s pedophilia she decided to cover it up and punish the messengers.

The truth does stink. That an innocent man went to jail. That a so called Buddhist Sangha devolved into black magicians by casting curses on their enemies. That a teacher has stolen money for stupas and the ordained to live like a queen for decades. That a quarter of a million of that money went into malicious prosecutions against innocent people. They cannot even apologize for threatening the wrong person. They hide and watch and scheme. Unable to defend their horrible actions.

The truth has come for you KPC. To say nothing now is to break the spirit of all my Samayas.

I wonder if that boy’s parents are considering a civil suit? I sincerely hope so. Then you are well and truly finished.



I was contemplating today the odd fact that, according to some brilliant Buddhists here, that little boy the insolent, vicious and stupid "Palzang" raped in Arizona had brought it all down on himself due to his misdeeds in a past life!

I look at it differently. I say if more Buddhists had spoken up a long time ago and publicized the truth about this cult, the boy wouldn't have gotten raped.

And the fact that Buddhists still won't do anything about it is what truly "stinks" in all this.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Ogyen » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:44 am

mujushinkyo wrote:I was contemplating today the odd fact that, according to some brilliant Buddhists here, that little boy the insolent, vicious and stupid "Palzang" raped in Arizona had brought it all down on himself due to his misdeeds in a past life!

I look at it differently. I say if more Buddhists had spoken up a long time ago and publicized the truth about this cult, the boy wouldn't have gotten raped.

And the fact that Buddhists still won't do anything about it is what truly "stinks" in all this.



I could substitute every use of "Buddhist" above with "people" and think of my own life and that of many others. Perhaps, you attribute to "Buddhists" what is simply attributable to humans. Buddhists are humans suffering too... I'm not sure what bearing the Buddhist-iness of it all would have in any of that. Humans turn away in the face of atrocities. Humans rise to fight in the face of atrocities. Humans are ignorant, cowardly, brave, sometimes skillful, sometimes horrible. Many humans (more than they're given credit) are capable of infinite kindness as well. Some principles apply to all people. Anger in my experience fans the flames brighter, especially where atrocity is concerned. I only say something because I have experienced a thing or two on the subject above. Such things just are. I'm not excusing it, those who can counter ignorance and violence, MUST. Such is the responsibility (imo) when the nature of understanding hits awareness. If we can do something to help, we must. That is why there are teachers. Like older siblings helping younger ones. I'm simply stating, you must try to forget about Buddhists for a moment, they're no "rescuers of the world," most can barely get a grip on their own crap. That's why it's called practice. Simply most try to do their best and look through a lens of kindness and see that it's just human, all too human. No mud, no lotus.

Maybe the fact that this recognition is in most instances an epic fail for most of us humans on the simplest of truths is what 'stinks'...

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