Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

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Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed May 16, 2012 10:44 am

Tashi delek,

Am interested to know more about the Dzogchen Lineage used inside Nyingma.

I understood that inside Nyingma, Buddha Shakyamuni is also venerated.

Question:
- How is Buddha Shakyamuni integrated in the Dzogchen Lineage?
- Is it in Nyingma accepted that Buddha Shakyamuni did, or didn' t teached Dzogchen?
- What is the position of Garab Dorje inside Nyingma?

Thanks at beforehand :namaste:

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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby simhamuka » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:44 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

Am interested to know more about the Dzogchen Lineage used inside Nyingma.

I understood that inside Nyingma, Buddha Shakyamuni is also venerated.

Question:
- How is Buddha Shakyamuni integrated in the Dzogchen Lineage?
- Is it in Nyingma accepted that Buddha Shakyamuni did, or didn' t teached Dzogchen?
- What is the position of Garab Dorje inside Nyingma?

Thanks at beforehand :namaste:

Mutsog Marro
KY


My understanding is that it's considered in Nyingma that Buddha Shakyamuni taught all the nine yanas in the first turning of the wheel of dharma--including dzogchen.

As for Garab Dorje, I need to check for other Nyingma Lineages (I have it in a book somewhere around here...), but in the Nam Cho the lineage goes: Samantabhadra, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, Avalokitesvara, Garab Dorje -- then Shiri Singha, then Guru Rinpoche.

I'll have to check for the other nyingma lineages.
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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby Totoro » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:41 am

Now, the Dzogchen classification of the teachings differs from that of other approaches. The difference lies in its view that the three kayas—dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, and nirmanakaya—are identical in essence. This means that the nirmanakaya Shakyamuni and the dharmakaya Samantabhadra
are not two separate buddhas but manifestations of a single state of buddhahood.

Let us look at one explanation that incorporates them both. Our teacher, the lord Buddha, Shakyamuni, awakened into complete buddhahood many eons ago as the dharmakaya Samantabhadra and taught the 6,400,000 Dzogchen tantras. Now, in the case of those disciples who have attained the first level of bodhisattva realization, while they are not able to encounter the dharmakaya Samantabhadra, they can, however, encounter the sambhogakaya.

So it was because of their particular circumstances that the tantras of the Vajrayana were presented by the sambhogakaya buddhas. Then, for beginners, who on account of the obscurations imposed by their negative karma and negative emotions are not even able to encounter the sambhogakaya, the Buddha manifested in the form of the nirmanakaya Shakyamuni and taught the approach based on causes, or the dialectical approach.

Nevertheless, Samantabhadra and Shakyamuni are both aspects of a single state of buddhahood. This buddhahood in the context of dharmakaya is Samantabhadra; in the context of sambhogakaya, it is Vajradhara; and in the context of nirmanakaya, it is Shakyamuni. And so we need to understand
the three kayas as inseparable. Otherwise we could reach some kind of erroneous conclusion, such as, "Dzogchen is not the teaching of the Buddha Shakyamuni." Misconceptions such as this develop out of ignorance of this inseparability of the three kayas.
We also need to understand that it is in response to individual beings to be guided, and their various levels of understanding, that buddhas manifest as they do. But from the point of view of the actual way in which things are, Samantabhadra, Vajradhara, and Shakyamuni are not three buddhas; they are
aspects of a single state of buddhahood.


From Sogyal Rinpoche's Introduction in the book 'A Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems' by Nyoshul Khenpo RInpoche.
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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby simhamuka » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:58 am

Yes, Totoro, exactly so. That's what I was taught, first by Gyaltrul Rinpoche in his ngundro teachings in 1987, and then by Khenchen Tsewang Gyatso at Namdroling.
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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby sangyey » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:51 pm

How is it understood that Shakyamuni awakened into the Dharmakaya many eons ago? I had thought that the Dharmakaya is unborn or there since beggingless time?
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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby simhamuka » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:59 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
- What is the position of Garab Dorje inside Nyingma?

Thanks at beforehand :namaste:

Mutsog Marro
KY


It sounds to me like you're asking about lineage. I don't know how to explain the details without giving the big picture first. Forgive me if I misunderstand or explain what you already know.

Per Gyaltrul Rinpoche (paraphrased): we have confidence in the Dharma because the source is enlightened. These teachings come from the fully awakened Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, so knowing the lineage is important because that's how we're sure of the source. If the source is enlightened, the result is enlightenment. He said you didn't want to follow something that some ordinary being just made up.

In Sutra the main source is the actual words of the Buddha, plus words said by students where the Buddha told them they were right (like in the Heart Sutra), and etc. Then there are all the commentaries, plus the vows of ordination.

In Tantra the main source is also the Buddha, in the sense that he taught all the possible types of teachings in a condensed form when he gave the Four Noble Truths. Realized beings in hearing that teaching were able receive all the depths and layers and types of Sutra and Tantra instantly. In the Nyingma, we classify the different types of Sutra and Tantra into nine categories, called the nine yanas (Kagyud classifies them into five). Those encompass every type of tantric teaching. So what's meant by "all the nine yanas were taught in the first turning of the wheel of Dharma" is that realized beings understood the Buddha fully. Ordinary people heard what they were able to understand, according to their capacities.

(This part is paraphrased from Tulku Thondup's The Tantric Practice of Nyingmapa:) With lineage, we trace back through the lineage step by step, how the tantras got from the Buddha to us. I just mentioned there were nine yanas. Each one of those yanas was received slightly differently in the world. Different teachers were involved in the transmission of each, which means there's a different lineage for each one of those nine yanas.

More than that, some of these tantras were received in one way by the Buddhas, another by realized Bodhisattvas, another by the gods, and in a different lineage by us.

Generally, the nine yanas are called:
1. Sravaka yana
2. Pratyekabuddha yana
3. Bodhisattva yana

4. Kriya tantra
5. Charya tantra
6. Yoga tantra

7. Maha yoga
8. Anu yoga
9. Ati yoga

A chart of these with explanations can be found here: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas

At long last, I'm answering your actual question. If you know all that other other stuff you can skip to here. Garab Dorje is key to the lineage of Ati yoga.

From Tulku Thondup's The Tantric Practice of Nyingmapa:
The teachings of Dzogpa Chenpo, the summit of the Yana, in 6,400,000 verses, were revealed by Vajrasattva to Garab Dorje, the first human teacher of Dzogchen. Garab Dorje compiled the teachings in books and disseminated them.


:anjali:
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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby muni » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:41 am

We have to go beyond theories no matter how sacred they might seem.
Theories can create an illusory distance between us and enlightenment.
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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:21 am

simhamuka wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
- What is the position of Garab Dorje inside Nyingma?

Thanks at beforehand :namaste:

Mutsog Marro
KY


It sounds to me like you're asking about lineage. I don't know how to explain the details without giving the big picture first. Forgive me if I misunderstand or explain what you already know.

Per Gyaltrul Rinpoche (paraphrased): we have confidence in the Dharma because the source is enlightened. These teachings come from the fully awakened Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, so knowing the lineage is important because that's how we're sure of the source. If the source is enlightened, the result is enlightenment. He said you didn't want to follow something that some ordinary being just made up.

In Sutra the main source is the actual words of the Buddha, plus words said by students where the Buddha told them they were right (like in the Heart Sutra), and etc. Then there are all the commentaries, plus the vows of ordination.

In Tantra the main source is also the Buddha, in the sense that he taught all the possible types of teachings in a condensed form when he gave the Four Noble Truths. Realized beings in hearing that teaching were able receive all the depths and layers and types of Sutra and Tantra instantly. In the Nyingma, we classify the different types of Sutra and Tantra into nine categories, called the nine yanas (Kagyud classifies them into five). Those encompass every type of tantric teaching. So what's meant by "all the nine yanas were taught in the first turning of the wheel of Dharma" is that realized beings understood the Buddha fully. Ordinary people heard what they were able to understand, according to their capacities.

(This part is paraphrased from Tulku Thondup's The Tantric Practice of Nyingmapa:) With lineage, we trace back through the lineage step by step, how the tantras got from the Buddha to us. I just mentioned there were nine yanas. Each one of those yanas was received slightly differently in the world. Different teachers were involved in the transmission of each, which means there's a different lineage for each one of those nine yanas.

More than that, some of these tantras were received in one way by the Buddhas, another by realized Bodhisattvas, another by the gods, and in a different lineage by us.

Generally, the nine yanas are called:
1. Sravaka yana
2. Pratyekabuddha yana
3. Bodhisattva yana

4. Kriya tantra
5. Charya tantra
6. Yoga tantra

7. Maha yoga
8. Anu yoga
9. Ati yoga

A chart of these with explanations can be found here: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas

At long last, I'm answering your actual question. If you know all that other other stuff you can skip to here. Garab Dorje is key to the lineage of Ati yoga.

From Tulku Thondup's The Tantric Practice of Nyingmapa:
The teachings of Dzogpa Chenpo, the summit of the Yana, in 6,400,000 verses, were revealed by Vajrasattva to Garab Dorje, the first human teacher of Dzogchen. Garab Dorje compiled the teachings in books and disseminated them.


:anjali:



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Theg pa rim dgu is known to me as the 9 ways of Nyingma.

But what the actual role of Garab Dorje is in Nyingma is not clear to me. I suppose he is also mentioned inside the Nyingma Dzogchen Lineage, as well Guru Rinpoche. Like i did read here aboard, has the Buddha Shakyamuni also something to do with Dzogchen and so he must be also inside the Dzogchen Lineage.


Mutsog Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby simhamuka » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:56 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Theg pa rim dgu is known to me as the 9 ways of Nyingma.

But what the actual role of Garab Dorje is in Nyingma is not clear to me. I suppose he is also mentioned inside the Nyingma Dzogchen Lineage, as well Guru Rinpoche. Like i did read here aboard, has the Buddha Shakyamuni also something to do with Dzogchen and so he must be also inside the Dzogchen Lineage.


Mutsog Marro
KY


Yes, I'm sorry. I was afraid that would be too basic for you, but I wasn't sure, your question is brief.

What exactly do you mean by "role"? The part he plays in the lineage or...?

Wait. I re-read your question:

The Tantric Practice of the Nyingmapa again:

Shakyamuni Buddha himself gave Tantric teachings by manifesting as various deities of the Tantra. Many siddhas also brought Tantras of the Outer Yanas from different worlds and practiced them in strict secrecy. But the tantras of the Inner Yanas, the highest teachings of Buddhism, were introduced into India under the strictest secrecy, and later they reached Tibet where they flourished, becoming the most sacred teachings of the Nyingmapa. The Inner Tantras have three categories: Maha Yoga, Ano Yoga, and Ati Yoga.


Does that help? Or have I misunderstood the question?
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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby muni » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:40 pm

Shantarakshita was invited to come to Tibet, he then asked to invite Padmasambhava. Then Shantarakshita selected 7 students and a vast translation works of Sanskrit scriptures started. Therefore also many Indian masters were invited to help. One of them Vimalamitra. The Tibetans studied Sanskrit, one of them was Vairotsana who studied in India as well with Shri Singha and recieved the dzogchen tantras in a pure vision from Garab Dorje as well.


Garab Dorje was born 166 Years after Buddha’s Parinirvana in Oddiyana, northwest of India. He was an incarnation of Vajrasattva. He was the first human to teach the Atiyoga Tantras. He passed the Atiyoga to Manjushrimitra, an emanation of the Boddhisattva Vajrapani between the first and third Century CE. In turn he transmitted them to Shri Simbha. He realised them and passed them to Jnanasutra, Buddhaguhya, and to the masters who brought them to Tibet: Vimalamitra, Padmasambhava, and Vairotsana.
http://www.nyingma.com/nyingma%20History.htm
Few books are:
"The Nyingma school of Buddhism". Dudjom Rinpoche. "The tantric tradition of the Nyingmapa". Tulku Thondup.
We have to go beyond theories no matter how sacred they might seem.
Theories can create an illusory distance between us and enlightenment.
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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby simhamuka » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:14 pm

muni, great explanation!

The Tantric Tradition of the Nyingmapa by Tulku Thondup is sadly out of print: http://www.tulkuthondup.com/bk_tantric_tradition.htm

It seems both muni and I have copies of it here though. My mother has the Dudjom Rinpoche book, so I'd have to borrow that.
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Re: Dzogchen Lineage inside Nyingma

Postby muni » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:41 am

Yes I see, Simhamuka. Then possible these can give more information:

"Lady of the Lotus-Born" by Gyalwa Changchub and Namkhay Nyingpo.
"Masters of Meditation and Miracles" by Tulku Thondup.

:anjali:
We have to go beyond theories no matter how sacred they might seem.
Theories can create an illusory distance between us and enlightenment.
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