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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:41 am 
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But keep in mind guys that collective practices are useful in many ways, especially if you deal with practitioners more experienced and attained. Just be sure to pick good Dharma Centers. I, unfortunately have none near me. But I also had the "wasp's nest dharma center" experience too. It's better to stay clear in those cases.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:42 am 
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Who comes to the hospital? The sick and the suffering. Think about it: you don't go looking for answers to your problems if you don't have problems already. Speaking for myself, I was (and in many respects still am) a complete mess when I began practicing Buddhism. I was suffering a lot, struggling a lot. The notion that I could bust out of my self-destructive habits and be kind and useful to others instead of an anchor weighing down my family and friends had more than a little appeal. In this respect, Buddhism is something of a last resort: if talk therapy won't work, and drugs are too expensive (or scary), then... maybe meditation?

I'm not saying that sanghas are psyche wards. (Well I guess I am saying this.) They're not just refuges for those who are struggling or troubled. They are places where people who are suffering commit themselves to working together to cultivate a saner approach, to bring some light into the world. So long as they remain committed to that goal, and have a measure of critical self-awareness, then everything works great. I know it can work because I've seen it work. This is why I identify with the Tendai school, actually: I now have a second family, in many respects a real family, in Upstate New York. Devotion to Dengyo Daishi & Jikaku Daishi only came after I could see first hand that an authentic community of practice existed around that temple. It's a priceless gem. It's certainly not the only one, either (and no, I'm not coming to the Nyingma forum to shill for Tendai).

In a sense, the same thing that makes sanghas possible (people suffer & struggle) also makes them potentially problematic (people suffer & struggle). I don't want anyone to think that because there are real problems with this particular group, that group practice is by definition a lost hope, or that nothing good can come from the public Dharma center arrangement. I think temple Buddhism has real value. What makes the difference between a sick sangha and a healthy one? In my opinion, leadership matters, more than the content of the teaching or the brand name on the sign: leadership really matters. You need leaders with a clear vision, a deep cultivation of the Great Matter, and the commitment to make corrections as necessary. Leadership matters.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:44 am 
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:good: Very good in fact.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:17 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Quote:
(14) When we hear only language that is foul and abusive,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have said many things without thinking;
We have slandered and caused many friendships to end.
Hereafter let’s censure all thoughtless remarks.

...(18) When unjustly we are blamed for the misdeeds of others,
And are falsely accused of flaws that we lack,
And are always the object of verbal abuse,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we’ve despised and belittled our gurus;
Hereafter let’s never accuse others falsely,
But give them full credit for virtues they have.

...(23) When others find fault with whatever we’re doing
And people seem eager to blame only us,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we’ve been shameless, not caring about others,
We have thought that our deeds didn’t matter at all,
Hereafter let’s stop our offensive behavior.

...(45) When no matter how well-meant our actions toward others,
They always elicit a hostile response,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we’ve repaid loving-kindness with malice;
Hereafter let’s always accept others’ favors
Both graciously and with most humble respect.

...(52) Frantically running through life’s tangled jungle,
We are chased by sharp weapons of wrongs we have done
Returning upon us; we are out of control.
This sly, deadly villain – the selfishness in us,
Deceiving ourselves and all others as well
Capture him, capture him, fierce Yamantaka,
Summon this enemy, bring him forth now!

(53) Batter him, batter him, rip out the heart
Of our grasping for ego, our love for ourselves!
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern!
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release!
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... apons.html
Attachment:
Yamantaka.jpg


Peacock in the Poison Grove. It's the inevitable next go-to thing after Lojong for American or British Buddhists when there's any suggestion of conflict.

I studied this stuff with a lama. I am up on it. Really. But --

What exactly is mind training of this kind for? It's to tame the "self" within the context of studying with a lama to move on from "selfishness."

To toss out these kinds of sayings in a public forum at people as a sort of reminder or rebuke is an abuse of mind-training. It's just for you. Master it yourself completely, and don't use it as a kind of pop-Christianity.

Ask your lama. Am I right, or not?


Last edited by mujushinkyo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:19 am 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
But keep in mind guys that collective practices are useful in many ways, especially if you deal with practitioners more experienced and attained. Just be sure to pick good Dharma Centers. I, unfortunately have none near me. But I also had the "wasp's nest dharma center" experience too. It's better to stay clear in those cases.


Who is "experienced and attained"?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:27 am 
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Peacock in the Poison Grove can be used in a very profound way or just a way to keep you quiet. In the later it's called blaming the victim. Context is everything.
Is someone unhappy with his life, not understanding why bad things happen? Then the above text is a good advice for one to understand how is karma, avoiding behavior that causes such results.
Is someone noticing persistent flaws in the teacher's behavior and points it out? Then the above text is a tactic to shut you up. It's blaming the victim.

It doesn't matter if you did many wrongdoings in the past. If someone is a jerk, then someone is a jerk. The karmic agent also accumulates bad karma. The ripening of your karma is not a justification for someone to harm you. Of course you have you seeded the causes to being treated unfairly. Otherwise you wouldn't suffer such consequences. This doesn't excuse, in any way, those harming you out of malice. If claims are made that it is not out of malice, but out of wisdom, than such person is claiming to be a very high level bodhisattva and needs to provide proof. He can't? then he is just a jerk playing the bodhisattva.

One can't be a fool and fall for such trickery.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:32 am 
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mujushinkyo wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
But keep in mind guys that collective practices are useful in many ways, especially if you deal with practitioners more experienced and attained. Just be sure to pick good Dharma Centers. I, unfortunately have none near me. But I also had the "wasp's nest dharma center" experience too. It's better to stay clear in those cases.


Who is "experienced and attained"?

That's for each person to find out. Some seem and aren't. Others seem and are. Others don't seem and are. Others don't seem and are not. There isn't a recipe. One needs to check the water for himself to know that. We can benefit a lot from the advice of senior students if they are good Dharma practitioners. We can benefit from practicing with them as they help us getting to where we aren't.
In this particular case, I'll be very clear about my opinion. Although I don't know very well your case, what I read is enough for me to understand the tremendous problems those people following Zeoli are getting in. KPC is lost beyond hope while under her influence and only a widely recognized teacher can stop the madness that is going on. Why none has done that is a mystery to me, but it may have a lot to do with how things work in Tibetan religious institutions.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:00 am 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
Peacock in the Poison Grove can be used in a very profound way or just a way to keep you quiet. In the later it's called blaming the victim. Context is everything.
Is someone unhappy with his life, not understanding why bad things happen? Then the above text is a good advice for one to understand how is karma, avoiding behavior that causes such results.
Is someone noticing persistent flaws in the teacher's behavior and points it out? Then the above text is a tactic to shut you up. It's blaming the victim.

It doesn't matter if you did many wrongdoings in the past. If someone is a jerk, then someone is a jerk. The karmic agent also accumulates bad karma. The ripening of your karma is not a justification for someone to harm you. Of course you have you seeded the causes to being treated unfairly. Otherwise you wouldn't suffer such consequences. This doesn't excuse, in any way, those harming you out of malice. If claims are made that it is not out of malice, but out of wisdom, than such person is claiming to be a very high level bodhisattva and needs to provide proof. He can't? then he is just a jerk playing the bodhisattva.

One can't be a fool and fall for such trickery.


:good:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:42 am 
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mujushinkyo wrote:
Peacock in the Poison Grove. It's the inevitable next go-to thing after Lojong for American or British Buddhists when there's any suggestion of conflict.
And ignoring the role of past karma is the inevitable next go for Anglo-American pseudo-Buddhists.
Quote:
What exactly is mind training of this kind for? It's to tame the "self" within the context of studying with a lama to move on from "selfishness."
That's one of it's goals, another one is to dissuade people from acting again in the same manner and generating the causes and conditions for the same outcomes. Another one is to get people to see the actual source of their suffering. Another one is to inform people about the role they play in perpetuating their own suffering. Another one is to get people to stop pointing fingers every time something goes wrong and actually use the negative circumstances to further their spiritual development. Another one is to break down the concept that you are the only one suffering in this world (egotistical approach) when actually there are just categories of suffering (and sources of suffering) that are common to all sentient beings. Another one is etc...
Quote:
To toss out these kinds of sayings in a public forum at people as a sort of reminder or rebuke is an abuse of mind-training. It's just for you. Master it yourself completely, and don't use it as a kind of pop-Christianity.
The only tosser around here is the one that refuses to see their role in the situation and projects all blame (tosses all responsibility) outwards. A common tactic of the ego.
Quote:
Ask your lama. Am I right, or not?
NOT!
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:50 am 
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mujushinkyo wrote:
I studied this stuff with a lama. I am up on it. What exactly is mind training of this kind for? It's to tame the "self" within the context of studying with a lama to move on from "selfishness."

Yes but it's also to train the mind so that you understand every problem that arises in your life as something you are responsible for but which nevertheless can be used to develop renunciation, compassion, respect for others, humility, acceptance, perseverance and wisdom.

Quote:
To toss out these kinds of sayings in a public forum at people as a sort of reminder or rebuke is an abuse of mind-training. It's just for you. Master it yourself completely, and don't use it as a kind of pop-Christianity.Ask your lama. Am I right, or not?

Wrong IMHO. In fact its very good advice and If YOU had mastered mind training you probably wouldn't be posting your grievances all over the web.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:52 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:
Quote:
To toss out these kinds of sayings in a public forum at people as a sort of reminder or rebuke is an abuse of mind-training. It's just for you. Master it yourself completely, and don't use it as a kind of pop-Christianity.
The only tosser around here is the one that refuses to see their role in the situation and projects all blame (tosses all responsibility) outwards. A common tactic of the ego.
Quote:


Not sure if you realize this, but the popular meaning of the term "tosser" in English is a strong insult http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/tosser.

Tilopa wrote:
Wrong IMHO. In fact its very good advice and If YOU had mastered mind training you probably wouldn't be posting your grievances all over the web.


From what I've read, I don't think Andrew is too concerned at the situation as it pertains strictly to him, rather how the impact ripples out to those around him. And it seems less about posting grievances all over the web, then trying to find a strategy to get the abuse to stop. He's also indicated that some of his responses weren't well thought out.

It should be noted from the term "responses" that he did not provoke or create the situation in the first place, nor were his initial attempts at dealing with the situation actions that would be perceived as inflaming the problem. Obviously from what Greg posted above, this could be Andrew's karma from a previous life coming home to roost. This does raise an interesting question of how to deal with adversity, should one just do nothing, except incorporate it into their spiritual development? But then what? Even if the adversity doesn't bother you, if what is being done unjust and is affecting others, should you then do nothing to stop the unjust situation? Some have suggested Andrew file a lawsuit or go to the authorities. I think in a way, with his letter to Gyatrul Rinpoche, he's doing just that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:01 pm 
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uan wrote:
I think in a way, with his letter to Gyatrul Rinpoche, he's doing just that.
Except that GR will not and can not do anything about the situation. Legal action is probably his only recourse and ceasing to draw attention to himself (like this thread) is probably another good idea.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:09 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
uan wrote:
I think in a way, with his letter to Gyatrul Rinpoche, he's doing just that.
Except that GR will not and can not do anything about the situation. Legal action is probably his only recourse and ceasing to draw attention to himself (like this thread) is probably another good idea.
:namaste:


Will not is probably true. Cannot is certainly not. The way that HHDL handled the Dolgyal situation should be a good model. Also his response to Michael Roach.
We really need a better response from Tibetan institutions than "Nothing to see here, move along" while the situation continues and metastasizes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:47 pm 
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Karma Dorje wrote:
Will not is probably true. Cannot is certainly not. The way that HHDL handled the Dolgyal situation should be a good model. Also his response to Michael Roach.
Cannot. Hate to be the one to inform you but the gyalpo is alive and well with monastaries of his own and secret practitioners in the mainstream Gelugpa tradition. as for Michael Roach, HHDL's action haven't slopped him in the slightest, maybe, just maybe, they have slowed him down but they certainly have not stopped them. So cannot is definitely the correct option. The "Nothing to see here, move along" attitude is not without it's basis. You see if the mainstream institutions continue to fortify their position they know that the bumps and glitches will iron themselves out by themselves. That's the way it goes without institutional support, one to two generations of practitioners maximum, and then *poof*. It's an attitude born of centuries of experience. Only major threats are dealt with directly.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:56 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
Will not is probably true. Cannot is certainly not. The way that HHDL handled the Dolgyal situation should be a good model. Also his response to Michael Roach.
Cannot. Hate to be the one to inform you but the gyalpo is alive and well with monastaries of his own and secret practitioners in the mainstream Gelugpa tradition. as for Michael Roach, HHDL's action haven't slopped him in the slightest, maybe, just maybe, they have slowed him down but they certainly have not stopped them. So cannot is definitely the correct option. The "Nothing to see here, move along" attitude is not without it's basis. You see if the mainstream institutions continue to fortify their position they know that the bumps and glitches will iron themselves out by themselves. That's the way it goes without institutional support, one to two generations of practitioners maximum, and then *poof*. It's an attitude born of centuries of experience. Only major threats are dealt with directly.
:namaste:


Yes, that worked so well for institutional Buddhism in Tibet. After centuries of sweeping corruption under the rug, constant political plotting against other schools and living off the largesse of the Chinese emperors, the karmic situation ripens and look at what happened to the country since 1959? The end does not justify the means. In any case, that's everything to do with politics and institution building and nothing to do with dharma and truth.

What you are neglecting in your summation is that NKT, Roach and the breakaway Geluk monasteries have been marginalized. They do not carry on able to brand themselves with the good name of His Holiness and prey upon those that trust him. The same has not happened in the case of KPC.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
Peacock in the Poison Grove can be used in a very profound way or just a way to keep you quiet. In the later it's called blaming the victim. Context is everything.
Is someone unhappy with his life, not understanding why bad things happen? Then the above text is a good advice for one to understand how is karma, avoiding behavior that causes such results.
Is someone noticing persistent flaws in the teacher's behavior and points it out? Then the above text is a tactic to shut you up. It's blaming the victim.

It doesn't matter if you did many wrongdoings in the past. If someone is a jerk, then someone is a jerk. The karmic agent also accumulates bad karma. The ripening of your karma is not a justification for someone to harm you. Of course you have you seeded the causes to being treated unfairly. Otherwise you wouldn't suffer such consequences. This doesn't excuse, in any way, those harming you out of malice. If claims are made that it is not out of malice, but out of wisdom, than such person is claiming to be a very high level bodhisattva and needs to provide proof. He can't? then he is just a jerk playing the bodhisattva.

One can't be a fool and fall for such trickery.


I like this response very much for its subtlety, balance and intelligence and I thank you for it.

For me, the point of mind training is to gain equanimity. It does not always dictate how one should act in this or that specific situation.

I have equanimity due to my Zen practice as well as my study of mind-training. I have no malice toward anyone -- I'd know it if I did -- and I do what, to me at least, evidently needs to be done.

To bring this sordid business to the attention of Gyatrul Rinpoche is a direct reasonable way of trying to resolve it. My letter to him is entirely clear and absolutely true on every point. It's just one more piece of the accumulating evidence that the KPC cultists are dangerous and insane. Don't kill the messenger!


-Andrew


Last edited by mujushinkyo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Karma Dorje wrote:
Yes, that worked so well for institutional Buddhism in Tibet. After centuries of sweeping corruption under the rug, constant political plotting against other schools and living off the largesse of the Chinese emperors, the karmic situation ripens and look at what happened to the country since 1959?
Quite irrelevant. In the one case we are talking about the invasion of one country by another and in the other we are talking about an "internal" problem in a religious institution.
Quote:
What you are neglecting in your summation is that NKT, Roach and the breakaway Geluk monasteries have been marginalized. They do not carry on able to brand themselves with the good name of His Holiness and prey upon those that trust him.
So what? I mean tell that to the thirty something retreatants (and hundreds of sponsors) at DM and the thousands of NKT followers. Like really... you think they give a sh*t that it doesn't have HHDL's seal of approval?
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:07 pm 
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Tilopa wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:
I studied this stuff with a lama. I am up on it. What exactly is mind training of this kind for? It's to tame the "self" within the context of studying with a lama to move on from "selfishness."

Yes but it's also to train the mind so that you understand every problem that arises in your life as something you are responsible for but which nevertheless can be used to develop renunciation, compassion, respect for others, humility, acceptance, perseverance and wisdom.

Quote:
To toss out these kinds of sayings in a public forum at people as a sort of reminder or rebuke is an abuse of mind-training. It's just for you. Master it yourself completely, and don't use it as a kind of pop-Christianity.Ask your lama. Am I right, or not?

Wrong IMHO. In fact its very good advice and If YOU had mastered mind training you probably wouldn't be posting your grievances all over the web.


You're stuck in a ridiculous religious delusion; I have no interest in it. You're also being very rude! Where's the "humility, acceptance, perseverance and wisdom" in this reply?

I'm not posting my grievances all over the Web. I've written a letter to Gyatrul Rinpoche about a situation that I believe should concern him (and perhaps you, since you identify with Tibetan Buddhism).

What's the situation? In a nutshell: a fanatical cult masquerading as Tibetan Buddhists is cyberstalking people, trying to interfere in their lives, and actually conspired to deceive an FBI agent in order to hurt their "enemy" William Cassidy. I merely got swept up in it. But since this cult can't live without an enemy, they're targeting me again with a systematic hate-defamation-slander campaign.

I make my living writing for people. I get many of my clients on the Web. If someone who might be a client Googles me, and sees that a "Tibetan Buddhist" group is claiming I'm flying helicopters around their compound, they might get confused. I have no choice but to put my story out there. It's not that I seek publicity. Originally, my Zen blog was anonymous.

These misdeeds by the cultists are ongoing and serious. The compassionate and wise route isn't to ignore them, but to put a stop to it. My appeal to Gyatrul Rinpoche is precisely to put a stop to it. What's the problem in that? Stopping this craziness will benefit me, but it will also benefit them.

I daresay stopping it will even benefit the Dharma. I know of people who've turned away from Vajrayana out of disgust for this cult's behavior.


Last edited by mujushinkyo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:13 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:
Peacock in the Poison Grove. It's the inevitable next go-to thing after Lojong for American or British Buddhists when there's any suggestion of conflict.
And ignoring the role of past karma is the inevitable next go for Anglo-American pseudo-Buddhists.
Quote:
What exactly is mind training of this kind for? It's to tame the "self" within the context of studying with a lama to move on from "selfishness."
That's one of it's goals, another one is to dissuade people from acting again in the same manner and generating the causes and conditions for the same outcomes. Another one is to get people to see the actual source of their suffering. Another one is to inform people about the role they play in perpetuating their own suffering. Another one is to get people to stop pointing fingers every time something goes wrong and actually use the negative circumstances to further their spiritual development. Another one is to break down the concept that you are the only one suffering in this world (egotistical approach) when actually there are just categories of suffering (and sources of suffering) that are common to all sentient beings. Another one is etc...
Quote:
To toss out these kinds of sayings in a public forum at people as a sort of reminder or rebuke is an abuse of mind-training. It's just for you. Master it yourself completely, and don't use it as a kind of pop-Christianity.
The only tosser around here is the one that refuses to see their role in the situation and projects all blame (tosses all responsibility) outwards. A common tactic of the ego.
Quote:
Ask your lama. Am I right, or not?
NOT!
:namaste:


You hold some beliefs about karma and you believe I should hold those beliefs also. In other words, you're in possession of the truth about what's good or bad, right or wrong, ego or not ego! Come on. Wake up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:33 pm 
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mujushinkyo wrote:
You hold some beliefs about karma and you believe I should hold those beliefs also. In other words, you're in possession of the truth about what's good or bad, right or wrong, ego or not ego! Come on. Wake up.
You threw out the Anglo-American thing and I threw it straight back at you. Now you are crying foul? So you think karma has nothing to do with it? Fine by me! Isn't strange that I don't have KPC threatening me and Feds breaking down my door? I wonder why not? Luck? Fate? God? Causes and conditions?

You choose your explanation and I'll choose mine.
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:namaste:

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