Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:33 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 102 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:44 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Not being a requirement is not the same as being irrelevant, but perhaps my English is off again. Also, if something is valuable for Dzogchen practice is it then correct to call it irrelevant for Dzogchen practice? Perhaps I am being picky but it just doesn't sound right to me.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Posts: 1999
Location: France
Malcolm wrote:
...
the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen ...

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:48 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Sönam wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
...
the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen ...


That part is clear enough, but this relation to Mahayoga/Anuyoga that is so valuable and still irrelevant leaves a lot of questions.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
...
the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen ...


That part is clear enough, but this relation to Mahayoga/Anuyoga that is so valuable and still irrelevant leaves a lot of questions.

/magnus



Not for me. Mahayoga and Anuyoga are not my path. They can be someone elses path, but they are not mine.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:41 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Malcolm wrote:
Not for me. Mahayoga and Anuyoga are not my path. They can be someone elses path, but they are not mine.


In that case your opinions on this subject are, with all respect, irrelevant.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:49 pm
Posts: 143
heart wrote:
Not being a requirement is not the same as being irrelevant,


yes it is. exactly so, in fact.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/irrelevant

"...having no bearing on or connection with the subject at issue;"




heart wrote:
but perhaps my English is off again.


perhaps



heart wrote:
Also, if something is valuable for Dzogchen practice is it then correct to call it irrelevant for Dzogchen practice?


yes. because of the above.

honestly? i think you're nit-picking and are aware that you are, like a tooth that bothers you, that you can't let go of.





d


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Posts: 1999
Location: France
daelm wrote:

honestly? i think you're nit-picking and are aware that you are, like a tooth that bothers you, that you can't let go of.

d


the tooth is moving :twothumbsup:

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:36 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
My Guru is in town, don't have much time to answer. I certainly feel you are limiting yourself in a way that in my experience isn't very helpful, but I do wish you good luck.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:58 pm
Posts: 123
perhaps this could add to the discussion, interesting question and answer from experienced practicioner. from Treasury of Ati blog http://www.atikosha.org/

Quote:
Hello Malcolm,

In your opinion, in general which kind of practicioners progress better today - the ones who start with the Dzogchen and practice only Dzogchen methods, or the ones who went thru Ngondro, Three Roots and then approach Dzogchen? What is your experience?

Thanks,
Mirco
---
Reply
Malcolm Smith July 21, 2011 9:37 AM

My opinion is that those people who receive Dzogchen teachings, and then practice Ngondro, three roots, etc., make the best progress, while at the same time practicing methods from Dzogchen.

_________________
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Posts: 2755
You know that's Malcom's blog, right, rai? :lol:
(That Malcom is this Malcom. Just making sure...)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Dechen Norbu wrote:
You know that's Malcom's blog, right, rai? :lol:
(That Malcom is this Malcom. Just making sure...)


It's a fair question.

The answer is that I have changed my mind. I don't support that position anymore.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Posts: 2755
You said it a few times already in this board and gave a quite eloquent explanation about the reasons that lead to such change.
I was wondering if he knows he is talking about the same person.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:58 pm
Posts: 123
Dechen Norbu wrote:
rai wrote:
perhaps this could add to the discussion, interesting question and answer from experienced practicioner. from Treasury of Ati blog http://www.atikosha.org/

Quote:
Hello Malcolm,

In your opinion, in general which kind of practicioners progress better today - the ones who start with the Dzogchen and practice only Dzogchen methods, or the ones who went thru Ngondro, Three Roots and then approach Dzogchen? What is your experience?

Thanks,
Mirco
---
Reply
Malcolm Smith July 21, 2011 9:37 AM

My opinion is that those people who receive Dzogchen teachings, and then practice Ngondro, three roots, etc., make the best progress, while at the same time practicing methods from Dzogchen.


You know that's Malcom's blog, right, rai? :lol:
(That Malcom is this Malcom. Just making sure...)



yes yes i know :smile: but i am not really interested in what position anybody holds or support at particular period of time. more i am interested in Malcom's (and other senior students) 20 years of observation on how students progress on the path. i've found it very valuable :smile:

_________________
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:34 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
So far, I have seen no proof that Dzogchen isn't a part of the Buddha's Dharma and as some people try to claim it is a foreign teaching inserted in to the Buddha's Dharma. Dzogchen contains special methods just like all yanas contain special methods. Certainly I believe Dzogchen can be a independent path but it is still the Buddha's Dharma since all the twelve Dzogchen Buddha's taught Dzogchen in the conest of Buddha Dharma. Malcolm say that there is no proof Buddha taught Dzogchen but in his comment on the Narag Tongtrug ChNNR say that Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Manjusri Tantra with Dzogchen instructions. The oldest text we have mentioning Dzogchen are Mahayoga texts like the Guhyagharbha Tantra and "Questions and answers on Vajrasattva" from the Duanhang documents. My personal view of this, until any better proofs comes, is that the three inner Tantras are inseparable and have the same source. So while the two stages are not absolutely necessary, since I don't much buy in to to the ladder theory, they are definitely a part of the context of the Dzogchen teachings. As Manjusrimitra writes ""I am Manjushrimitra, who has attained the siddhi of Yamantaka". So there you got it, my hurting tooth is basically that you guys have nothing but blind faith to counter this.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Posts: 2755
I don't understand what you mean by Buddha's Dharma. Which Buddha's Dharma? The one accepted by which school? Theravadins? Mahayanists? Ch'an, Zen, Pure Land Buddhism? The Gelugpas? Sakyapas, Kagyupas, Nyingmapas? Which? Are you talking about what exactly? Dzogchen is the Buddhas's Dharma in the sense that it is a path to Buddhahood. Are you saying it is also Buddhist? If so, it would be prudent for you to inform us which kind of Buddhism are you referring to so that we can know.
And if such is the case, did Gautama also taught the Bons? You're losing me a little here because I don't know what exactly are you talking about...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:19 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Posts: 2940
Location: Space is the Place
heart wrote:
So far, I have seen no proof that Dzogchen isn't a part of the Buddha's Dharma and as some people try to claim it is a foreign teaching inserted in to the Buddha's Dharma. Dzogchen contains special methods just like all yanas contain special methods. Certainly I believe Dzogchen can be a independent path but it is still the Buddha's Dharma since all the twelve Dzogchen Buddha's taught Dzogchen in the conest of Buddha Dharma. Malcolm say that there is no proof Buddha taught Dzogchen but in his comment on the Narag Tongtrug ChNNR say that Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Manjusri Tantra with Dzogchen instructions. The oldest text we have mentioning Dzogchen are Mahayoga texts like the Guhyagharbha Tantra and "Questions and answers on Vajrasattva" from the Duanhang documents. My personal view of this, until any better proofs comes, is that the three inner Tantras are inseparable and have the same source. So while the two stages are not absolutely necessary, since I don't much buy in to to the ladder theory, they are definitely a part of the context of the Dzogchen teachings. As Manjusrimitra writes ""I am Manjushrimitra, who has attained the siddhi of Yamantaka". So there you got it, my hurting tooth is basically that you guys have nothing but blind faith to counter this.

/magnus


I am starting to think too much emphasis is being placed on these labels from both sides of this dialogue. Since the word Buddha is just a referent for a fully realized being, I wonder if people would still argue with the statement dropping all foreign words (hahaha except Dzogchen, since all of us in the Dzogchen forum are so attached to that one!): "Dzogchen is the truth (dharma) expressed by fully realized beings (Buddhas)".

Ok, let's try it again, without the parenthesis! "Dzogchen is the truth expressed by fully realized beings".

Is it at all controversial? I am sure at least you and I agree that it is not Magnus. Hopefully nobody else finds it such!

Ok, let's take it a step further: "Fully realized beings also expressed things differently when trying to communicate the truth, so that different types of people could relate to the truth based on where their minds were at". Ok.. then we are back to the 9 yana system, or whatever equivalent there may be in the past or future or in other world systems.. it really does seem quite basic.

_________________
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:17 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Dechen Norbu wrote:
I don't understand what you mean by Buddha's Dharma. Which Buddha's Dharma? The one accepted by which school? Theravadins? Mahayanists? Ch'an, Zen, Pure Land Buddhism? The Gelugpas? Sakyapas, Kagyupas, Nyingmapas? Which? Are you talking about what exactly? Dzogchen is the Buddhas's Dharma in the sense that it is a path to Buddhahood. Are you saying it is also Buddhist? If so, it would be prudent for you to inform us which kind of Buddhism are you referring to so that we can know.
And if such is the case, did Gautama also taught the Bons? You're losing me a little here because I don't know what exactly are you talking about...


You can take your pick which list of Buddhas you subscribe to, there are several, but since you are Dzogchen practitioner I would guess you would see my post in the perspective of the 12 Dzogchen Buddhas. Buddhist is just a label for people having faith in the Buddha's teaching at this time and place. Buddha's don't teach religion they teach methods for attaining Buddhahood. Dzogchen is one of these methods. You agree?

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:27 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Adamantine wrote:

I am starting to think too much emphasis is being placed on these labels from both sides of this dialogue. Since the word Buddha is just a referent for a fully realized being, I wonder if people would still argue with the statement dropping all foreign words (hahaha except Dzogchen, since all of us in the Dzogchen forum are so attached to that one!): "Dzogchen is the truth (dharma) expressed by fully realized beings (Buddhas)".

Ok, let's try it again, without the parenthesis! "Dzogchen is the truth expressed by fully realized beings".

Is it at all controversial? I am sure at least you and I agree that it is not Magnus. Hopefully nobody else finds it such!

Ok, let's take it a step further: "Fully realized beings also expressed things differently when trying to communicate the truth, so that different types of people could relate to the truth based on where their minds were at". Ok.. then we are back to the 9 yana system, or whatever equivalent there may be in the past or future or in other world systems.. it really does seem quite basic.


Yes, it is quite simple. In truth the 9 yanas is probably a simplification of the vast numbers of yanas the Buddhas teach. Are all these yanas related? Yes, because they have the same source, the Buddha's realization. So we can call them the Buddha's Dharma or Buddhism or Bon or something else.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am
Posts: 2552
heart wrote:
Adamantine wrote:

I am starting to think too much emphasis is being placed on these labels from both sides of this dialogue. Since the word Buddha is just a referent for a fully realized being, I wonder if people would still argue with the statement dropping all foreign words (hahaha except Dzogchen, since all of us in the Dzogchen forum are so attached to that one!): "Dzogchen is the truth (dharma) expressed by fully realized beings (Buddhas)".

Ok, let's try it again, without the parenthesis! "Dzogchen is the truth expressed by fully realized beings".

Is it at all controversial? I am sure at least you and I agree that it is not Magnus. Hopefully nobody else finds it such!

Ok, let's take it a step further: "Fully realized beings also expressed things differently when trying to communicate the truth, so that different types of people could relate to the truth based on where their minds were at". Ok.. then we are back to the 9 yana system, or whatever equivalent there may be in the past or future or in other world systems.. it really does seem quite basic.


Yes, it is quite simple. In truth the 9 yanas is probably a simplification of the vast numbers of yanas the Buddhas teach. Are all these yanas related? Yes, because they have the same source, the Buddha's realization. So we can call them the Buddha's Dharma or Buddhism or Bon or something else.

/magnus

If someone other than Dechen Norbu can reply...no.I dont agree at all.
At best Buddhism can be a vehicle for Dzogchen. More frequently it is a potential block to Dzogchen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Posts: 2755
heart wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
I don't understand what you mean by Buddha's Dharma. Which Buddha's Dharma? The one accepted by which school? Theravadins? Mahayanists? Ch'an, Zen, Pure Land Buddhism? The Gelugpas? Sakyapas, Kagyupas, Nyingmapas? Which? Are you talking about what exactly? Dzogchen is the Buddhas's Dharma in the sense that it is a path to Buddhahood. Are you saying it is also Buddhist? If so, it would be prudent for you to inform us which kind of Buddhism are you referring to so that we can know.
And if such is the case, did Gautama also taught the Bons? You're losing me a little here because I don't know what exactly are you talking about...


You can take your pick which list of Buddhas you subscribe to, there are several, but since you are Dzogchen practitioner I would guess you would see my post in the perspective of the 12 Dzogchen Buddhas. Buddhist is just a label for people having faith in the Buddha's teaching at this time and place. Buddha's don't teach religion they teach methods for attaining Buddhahood. Dzogchen is one of these methods. You agree?

/magnus

Dzogchen teachings are (since you are talking about method).
I have no beef if you consider Dzogchen the teachings of the Buddhas, or teachings to realize Buddhahood. I think everyone would agree with such point. :smile:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 102 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Norwegian, qwerty13, Saoshun and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group