Dzogchen and the Two Stages

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:44 pm

Not being a requirement is not the same as being irrelevant, but perhaps my English is off again. Also, if something is valuable for Dzogchen practice is it then correct to call it irrelevant for Dzogchen practice? Perhaps I am being picky but it just doesn't sound right to me.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Sönam » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:54 pm

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:48 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:25 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:41 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby daelm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:39 pm


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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Sönam » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:29 pm

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:36 pm

My Guru is in town, don't have much time to answer. I certainly feel you are limiting yourself in a way that in my experience isn't very helpful, but I do wish you good luck.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby rai » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:26 pm


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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:42 am

You know that's Malcom's blog, right, rai? :lol:
(That Malcom is this Malcom. Just making sure...)

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:47 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:54 am

You said it a few times already in this board and gave a quite eloquent explanation about the reasons that lead to such change.
I was wondering if he knows he is talking about the same person.

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby rai » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:02 am


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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:34 pm

So far, I have seen no proof that Dzogchen isn't a part of the Buddha's Dharma and as some people try to claim it is a foreign teaching inserted in to the Buddha's Dharma. Dzogchen contains special methods just like all yanas contain special methods. Certainly I believe Dzogchen can be a independent path but it is still the Buddha's Dharma since all the twelve Dzogchen Buddha's taught Dzogchen in the conest of Buddha Dharma. Malcolm say that there is no proof Buddha taught Dzogchen but in his comment on the Narag Tongtrug ChNNR say that Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Manjusri Tantra with Dzogchen instructions. The oldest text we have mentioning Dzogchen are Mahayoga texts like the Guhyagharbha Tantra and "Questions and answers on Vajrasattva" from the Duanhang documents. My personal view of this, until any better proofs comes, is that the three inner Tantras are inseparable and have the same source. So while the two stages are not absolutely necessary, since I don't much buy in to to the ladder theory, they are definitely a part of the context of the Dzogchen teachings. As Manjusrimitra writes ""I am Manjushrimitra, who has attained the siddhi of Yamantaka". So there you got it, my hurting tooth is basically that you guys have nothing but blind faith to counter this.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:26 am

I don't understand what you mean by Buddha's Dharma. Which Buddha's Dharma? The one accepted by which school? Theravadins? Mahayanists? Ch'an, Zen, Pure Land Buddhism? The Gelugpas? Sakyapas, Kagyupas, Nyingmapas? Which? Are you talking about what exactly? Dzogchen is the Buddhas's Dharma in the sense that it is a path to Buddhahood. Are you saying it is also Buddhist? If so, it would be prudent for you to inform us which kind of Buddhism are you referring to so that we can know.
And if such is the case, did Gautama also taught the Bons? You're losing me a little here because I don't know what exactly are you talking about...

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:19 am

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:17 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:27 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:13 am

" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:05 am



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