Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

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Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:05 am

In another thread, Malcolm states:
I never said anyone had to change anything. That is not the principle of Dzogchen. Buddhists do not have to change being Buddhist, Xtians do not have to change being Xtians, Hindus do not have to change being Hindus, etc. If they are interested enough to practice Dzogchen, all they have to do is receive introduction and apply the practice, but they don't have change a thing.


Also:
That concept of "samaya breakers" only functions in the Buddhist world. This kind of thing is all completely relative.


also:
username wrote:Like when Mariusz asked if a believer of other traditions denying emptiness can receive the whole of Dzogchen transmissions and go through the four visions while holding on to those contradictory beleifs. You said he can receive all of Dzogchen Transmissions.



Right, he can.


So please excuse me if I take liberties, but I am only trying to do something akin to what Nagarjuna was so good at: look at a proposition and take it to it's logical extreme. In this case, along with other quotes and their context about Dzogchen being not Buddhist, being beyond cause and effect, as well as the two stages etc. I assume (correct me if I am wrong Malcolm) that you intend to contradict Guru Rinpoche's famous quote "My view is as high as the sky, but my attention to actions and their consequences is a fine as barely flour"

I recently watched a grotesque new film a friend-of-a-friend made documenting haitian voodoo gatherings..The Pierced Heart and the Machete... http://vimeo.com/42460771 pretty nutso stuff..possessions, zombies, many animal sacrifices...cool film but made me really happy I knew the mantra OM MANI PADME HUM to employ while watching. It reminded me of someone saying (hahaha I think it may have been you Malcolm) ChNN said to avoid the Candomblé Brazilian cults that have the same roots.. because he said they are worshiping gyalpos, so are pervaded with that energy... Now how does this work with all this rhetoric that any religion can come and study Dzogchen? Do you mean with ChNN, or just as an abstract concept? Because ChNN is very anti-dogyal, his book on Guru Drakpur is very explicit about this.. so NKT people and Voodoo people can all join Dzogchen Community and practice Guru Yoga of White Ah and reach realization, and keep their other beliefs? No prob? Sacrifice animals too? Am I missing something? I somehow don't think ChNN would agree with you here, but I am happy to be proven wrong.
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:14 am

Now, also in terms of Dzogchen being beyond cause and result, beyond the two stages.. I understand the theory but how does this actually
function practically?

Because you need someone to give pointing out instructions.. that is a cause.. don't we need merit to enable us to connect to a qualified teacher who has the capacity to do this? Or are you saying it is just mere chance? randomness?

Also, in the case of ChNN's instructions, we are given precise instructions, that involve a visualization. You say Guru Yoga of the White Ah is all anyone needs, and they can subscribe to any religion, etc. whatever. But how is making the effort to properly visualize a white Ah in a rainbow tigle not making use of effort, or a cause? Believe me, I have used this exercise many times.. and I really don't see it as much different than visualizing oneself as a yidam in terms of the effort of attention, memory, and creative visualization it entails. What's more, we then loudly chant AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. How is this different than any other mantra? Sure, it is one syllable.. but it is still mantra. What's the difference between one seed syllable and a few strung together?
What is so radically different?
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:25 am

Hi Adamantine, I just want to add here that I don't know if 'Voodoo' or Vodoun rather, Hoodoo, Palo, Obeah, and Santeria, inherently have negative practices or not; however the original Religion that these practices—or some of these practices—is derived from, that is Yoruba, is a positive Religion from what I understand.
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:29 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:And also I don't think that Malcolm was implying that practices of negative magic are compatible with Dzogchen practice.


He is the one making all these sweeping statements without conditionals.. So he should probably answer. Thanks for the reply though.

I just want to add here that I don't know if 'Voodoo' or Vodoun rather, Hoodoo, Palo, Obeah, and Santeria are inherently negative or not; however the original Religion that these practices—or some of these practices—is derived from, that is Yoruba, is a positive Religion.


What makes one religion positive, and another negative?
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:38 am

Adamantine wrote:Now, also in terms of Dzogchen being beyond cause and result, beyond the two stages.. I understand the theory but how does this actually
function practically?

Because you need someone to give pointing out instructions.. that is a cause.. don't we need merit to enable us to connect to a qualified teacher who has the capacity to do this? Or are you saying it is just mere chance? randomness?


That is not a cause of your primordial state. That is a cause of meeting the teachings.


Also, in the case of ChNN's instructions, we are given precise instructions, that involve a visualization. You say Guru Yoga of the White Ah is all anyone needs, and they can subscribe to any religion, etc. whatever. But how is making the effort to properly visualize a white Ah in a rainbow tigle not making use of effort, or a cause?


Of course, in the beginning you are working with mind through a simple visualization, but it is not a cause of your primordial state, it is method of connecting with and working with the transmission, a method for directly entering that knowledge.

What is so radically different?


Even Ati Guru Yoga is a method. If you don't need, you don't have to use it.

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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:40 am

I've edited the wording of my previous post, which changes the emphasis a bit (and edited out the part about Malcolm speaking specifically against animal sacrifice, because it could have been someone else even though I'm pretty sure that it was Malcolm who wrote it); but to answer your question:


Adamantine wrote:What makes one religion positive, and another negative?


The intention it has, and/or the practices that people perform because of it.

At least some of the sects I'd listed in my previous post—not including Yoruba itself—have some negative practices, such as you have witnessed in that documentary (and Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's apparent mentioning of them worshiping negative Gyalpos).
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:44 am

Adamantine wrote:In another thread, Malcolm states:



I have already spoken to you about your rhetorical flourishes. BTW, when is last time you molested a child?

See? I am not answering this question because it is just a screed.

Your question is like Fox News.
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:46 am

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Now, also in terms of Dzogchen being beyond cause and result, beyond the two stages.. I understand the theory but how does this actually
function practically?

Because you need someone to give pointing out instructions.. that is a cause.. don't we need merit to enable us to connect to a qualified teacher who has the capacity to do this? Or are you saying it is just mere chance? randomness?


That is not a cause of your primordial state. That is a cause of meeting the teachings.


right. but we are talking about practicing Dzogchen now, right?



Also, in the case of ChNN's instructions, we are given precise instructions, that involve a visualization. You say Guru Yoga of the White Ah is all anyone needs, and they can subscribe to any religion, etc. whatever. But how is making the effort to properly visualize a white Ah in a rainbow tigle not making use of effort, or a cause?


Of course, in the beginning you are working with mind through a simple visualization, but it is not a cause of your primordial state, it is method of connecting with and working with the transmission, a method for directly entering that knowledge.


Right, so what am I missing then? How is it much different then the methods of Maha or Anu yoga, when these methods are introduced by a Dzogchen Guru and when the practitioner is likewise intending to remain in a state of rigpa while practicing them? Because many teachers, like ChNN, teach these all at the same time. Because in other threads you've created a whole lot of rhetoric around the supreme path of pure Dzogchen vs. tantric Buddhism.


What is so radically different?


Even Ati Guru Yoga is a method. If you don't need, you don't have to use it.

[/quote]

I would guess, if you don't need it, you're already enlightened.. or 100% integrated, whatever language you want to use. I don't think we need to hash these things out on behalf of Buddhas, these issues are for us who still have the need to practice something.
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:50 am

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:In another thread, Malcolm states:



I have already spoken to you about your rhetorical flourishes. BTW, when is last time you molested a child?

See? I am not answering this question because it is just a screed.

Your question is like Fox News.


No, Malcolm, that reply is so weak it means you must have no adequate response. Saying my "rhetorical flourishes" are like Fox News" is your own rhetorical flourish worthy of Fox News. What I was asking, as I said, is no more than bringing your statements to a logical extreme.. this is a common form of Buddhist dialogue, you should be familiar with that as much as anyone! So don't be so disingenuous!
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:55 am

Adamantine wrote:

Even Ati Guru Yoga is a method. If you don't need, you don't have to use it.



I would guess, if you don't need it, you're already enlightened.. or 100% integrated, whatever language you want to use. I don't think we need to hash these things out on behalf of Buddhas, these issues are for us who still have the need to practice something.

What he means (what I think he means) is that if you can easily rest in instant presence, then you can do that as Guru Yoga. There is no rule or law when it comes to practice and Dzogchen. This isn't about contriving, but sometimes we make use of contrived things based on mind because sometimes those things are very helpful. GY for example, doesn't have to be an every day at 8 AM thing or whatever, one day you can skip it, or you can do it as you wish to instead of at the same times, etc. Everybody's condition is different.

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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:57 am

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Now, also in terms of Dzogchen being beyond cause and result, beyond the two stages.. I understand the theory but how does this actually
function practically?

Because you need someone to give pointing out instructions.. that is a cause.. don't we need merit to enable us to connect to a qualified teacher who has the capacity to do this? Or are you saying it is just mere chance? randomness?


That is not a cause of your primordial state. That is a cause of meeting the teachings.


right. but we are talking about practicing Dzogchen now, right?




Practicing Dzogchen means first of all; recognizing your primordial state -- and for that purpse we can use many methods but all of them will be connnected with mind since we have not yet gone beyond mind. When we have that recognition practice consists in integrating that knowledge directly with practices that go beyond mind.

Ati Guru Yoga can be and is for both.


Because in other threads you've created a whole lot of rhetoric around the supreme path of pure Dzogchen vs. tantric Buddhism.


No, I haven't. But some people, like you, have assumed that I was.

Dzogchen proper has its methods. Mahāyoga and Anuyoga likewise have their methods. The latter are based on transformation, the former is not. Dzogchen practitioners can use all of these methods, and more.

I would guess, if you don't need it, you're already enlightened.. or 100% integrated, whatever language you want to use. I don't think we need to hash these things out on behalf of Buddhas, these issues are for us who still have the need to practice something.


You should practice whatever you feel is important for you. Afterall, you know your own condition best.

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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:58 am

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:In another thread, Malcolm states:



I have already spoken to you about your rhetorical flourishes. BTW, when is last time you molested a child?

See? I am not answering this question because it is just a screed.

Your question is like Fox News.


No, Malcolm, that reply is so weak it means you must have no adequate response. Saying my "rhetorical flourishes" are like Fox News" is your own rhetorical flourish worthy of Fox News. What I was asking, as I said, is no more than bringing your statements to a logical extreme.. this is a common form of Buddhist dialogue, you should be familiar with that as much as anyone! So don't be so disingenuous!


I am not going to answer that barrage of questions in the manner in which it was asked. You may try to rephrase the question(s) if you like.
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:12 am

I am not going to answer that barrage of questions in the manner in which it was asked. You may try to rephrase the question(s) if you like.



This is a genuine question, what is hard to understand?

I will rephrase parts, if you have some emotional issue with the way I phrased things. OK:

ChNN said to avoid the Candomblé Brazilian cults that have the same roots.. because he said they are worshiping gyalpos, so are pervaded with that energy... Now how does this work with the claim that any religion can come and study Dzogchen? Because ChNN is very anti-dogyal, his book on Guru Drakpur is very explicit about this.. Do you believe Malcolm, that NKT people and Voodoo people can join Dzogchen Community and practice Guru Yoga of White Ah and reach realization, and keep their other beliefs? For instance, keep propitiating gyalpos, and sacrificing animals too? I somehow don't think ChNN would agree with you here, but I am happy to be proven wrong. Please explain to me your view of religious pluralism in Dzogchen, and particularly the DC, in light of these examples.
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby jbaumannmontilla » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:46 am

Two things.

1.Everything that Malcolm is saying is actually in the early dzogchen texts. So maybe you want to go argue with Manjusrimitra.

2. These posts on Afro Diasporic religions are deeply racist, drawing upon a whole history of demonization of people of African descent and denigration of their religions. This demonization was used as justification for the African slave trade and for the bloody European invasion of Africa. Have to Christianize those crazy evil Africans. Your friend's film is voyeuristic and exploitative. The Tibetans aren't vegetarians, neither are the Haitians. And? Isn't Mahasiddha Krishnacharya depicted riding a zombie? Spirit possession is also practiced by Tibetans, they're called oracles. One of them advises the Dalai Lama. "Pretty Nutso Stuff."

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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:08 am

jbaumannmontilla wrote:Two things.

1.Everything that Malcolm is saying is actually in the early dzogchen texts. So maybe you want to go argue with Manjusrimitra.

2. These posts on Afro Diasporic religions are deeply racist, drawing upon a whole history of demonization of people of African descent and denigration of their religions. This demonization was used as justification for the African slave trade and for the bloody European invasion of Africa. Have to Christianize those crazy evil Africans. Your friend's film is voyeuristic and exploitative. The Tibetans aren't vegetarians, neither are the Haitians. And? Isn't Mahasiddha Krishnacharya depicted riding a zombie? Spirit possession is also practiced by Tibetans, they're called oracles. One of them advises the Dalai Lama. "Pretty Nutso Stuff."

Thanks


Not to mention that there are some bablawo that do not perform animal sacrifice to the Orishas but do it symbolically. There is much of beauty in the Yoruba religion, and deities like Shango and Obatala are certainly not gyalpos. Are you a vegetarian? If not, then do you really think that the animals who are sacrificed are treated worse than your dinner was on a factory farm?
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:15 am

Adamantine wrote:Now how does this work with the claim that any religion can come and study Dzogchen?[/b]


I never made that claim. Relgions are are not people.

What I said was that anyone, regardless of religion, who is interested may come and study Dzogchen teachings.
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Josef » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:15 am

jbaumannmontilla wrote:Two things.

1.Everything that Malcolm is saying is actually in the early dzogchen texts. So maybe you want to go argue with Manjusrimitra.

2. These posts on Afro Diasporic religions are deeply racist, drawing upon a whole history of demonization of people of African descent and denigration of their religions. This demonization was used as justification for the African slave trade and for the bloody European invasion of Africa. Have to Christianize those crazy evil Africans. Your friend's film is voyeuristic and exploitative. The Tibetans aren't vegetarians, neither are the Haitians. And? Isn't Mahasiddha Krishnacharya depicted riding a zombie? Spirit possession is also practiced by Tibetans, they're called oracles. One of them advises the Dalai Lama. "Pretty Nutso Stuff."

Thanks

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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:20 am

Karma Dorje wrote:If not, then do you really think that the animals who are sacrificed are treated worse than your dinner was on a factory farm?


Yes, in general (but not always) animals used in such ritual sacrifices are then consumed. It is the same actually in Dakshinkali in Katmandhu. From my point of view, blood sacrifices are based on a mistaken concept. But I think anyone from one of this religions where blood sacrifice is common who comes to practice Dzogchen teachings will understand that and eventually cease. However, pleasedo bear in mind that the Lhasa Gvt. hired non-Buddhist priests to sacrifice bulls yearly to satiate the bloodthirsty gods and demons of Tibet prior to 1959.

As for gyalpos, not all gyalpos are "bad". ChNN makes that point frequently.

As I said, any person from any religion, who is interested to study and practice Dzogchen may do so without having to convert to Buddhism.

Anyway, I not going to lend any further dignity to this thread because it was clearly conceived polemically, with religious hostility, and I am not interested persuing this thread any further.

I leave you to your own devices.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:40 am

I don't think the OP is asking a good faith question. I frankly don't understand the fundamentalism we have seen from some quarters on these threads. It has certainly provided a reductio ad nauseum of the institutional view.

I have never once seen Malcolm say that you *cannot* practice whatever you want in terms of buddhist practice as an approach to Dzogchen. He has merely said that it is not necessary, and in some respects contrary to the intent of the Dzogchen teachings. This is nothing different than what you find in any number of dzogchen texts themselves.

Have you never had a moment after years of doing a sadhana where you just burst out laughing at how contrived the whole "Now we meditate on emptiness" approach is? It is a kind of foolishness, if a useful one for certain kinds of minds at certain stages of practice. The problem is, it can be really easy to reify and then completely lose the whole point of the practice that goes beyond practice-- particularly if you go through a very hierarchical path where you really feel like you are getting somewhere. This isn't to say that one can't perform these tantric practices from within the dzogchen view... in important respects that is the only way to really do them to be of benefit to beings. Malcolm's point (if I can presume to say I understand it) is that it ain't necessarily so.
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Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:59 am

Jbaumannmontilla and Karma Dorje, I didn't say that Yoruba deities are Gyalpos, if that's what either of you are implying. In fact I implied here that Yoruba deities are the opposite of negative Gyalpos (and as Malcolm said, not all Gyalpos are negative anyway). I only said that some western-hemisphere offshoots of Yoruba seem to have some negative practices.
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