Dzogchen and the Two Stages

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:44 pm

Not being a requirement is not the same as being irrelevant, but perhaps my English is off again. Also, if something is valuable for Dzogchen practice is it then correct to call it irrelevant for Dzogchen practice? Perhaps I am being picky but it just doesn't sound right to me.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Sönam » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:...
the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen ...
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:48 pm

Sönam wrote:
Malcolm wrote:...
the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen ...


That part is clear enough, but this relation to Mahayoga/Anuyoga that is so valuable and still irrelevant leaves a lot of questions.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:25 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Malcolm wrote:...
the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen ...


That part is clear enough, but this relation to Mahayoga/Anuyoga that is so valuable and still irrelevant leaves a lot of questions.

/magnus



Not for me. Mahayoga and Anuyoga are not my path. They can be someone elses path, but they are not mine.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:Not for me. Mahayoga and Anuyoga are not my path. They can be someone elses path, but they are not mine.


In that case your opinions on this subject are, with all respect, irrelevant.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby daelm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:39 pm

heart wrote:Not being a requirement is not the same as being irrelevant,


yes it is. exactly so, in fact.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/irrelevant

"...having no bearing on or connection with the subject at issue;"




heart wrote: but perhaps my English is off again.


perhaps



heart wrote: Also, if something is valuable for Dzogchen practice is it then correct to call it irrelevant for Dzogchen practice?


yes. because of the above.

honestly? i think you're nit-picking and are aware that you are, like a tooth that bothers you, that you can't let go of.





d
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Sönam » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:29 pm

daelm wrote:
honestly? i think you're nit-picking and are aware that you are, like a tooth that bothers you, that you can't let go of.

d


the tooth is moving :twothumbsup:

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:36 pm

My Guru is in town, don't have much time to answer. I certainly feel you are limiting yourself in a way that in my experience isn't very helpful, but I do wish you good luck.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby rai » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:26 pm

perhaps this could add to the discussion, interesting question and answer from experienced practicioner. from Treasury of Ati blog http://www.atikosha.org/

Hello Malcolm,

In your opinion, in general which kind of practicioners progress better today - the ones who start with the Dzogchen and practice only Dzogchen methods, or the ones who went thru Ngondro, Three Roots and then approach Dzogchen? What is your experience?

Thanks,
Mirco
---
Reply
Malcolm Smith July 21, 2011 9:37 AM

My opinion is that those people who receive Dzogchen teachings, and then practice Ngondro, three roots, etc., make the best progress, while at the same time practicing methods from Dzogchen.
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:42 am

You know that's Malcom's blog, right, rai? :lol:
(That Malcom is this Malcom. Just making sure...)
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:47 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:You know that's Malcom's blog, right, rai? :lol:
(That Malcom is this Malcom. Just making sure...)


It's a fair question.

The answer is that I have changed my mind. I don't support that position anymore.
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:54 am

You said it a few times already in this board and gave a quite eloquent explanation about the reasons that lead to such change.
I was wondering if he knows he is talking about the same person.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby rai » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:02 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:
rai wrote:perhaps this could add to the discussion, interesting question and answer from experienced practicioner. from Treasury of Ati blog http://www.atikosha.org/

Hello Malcolm,

In your opinion, in general which kind of practicioners progress better today - the ones who start with the Dzogchen and practice only Dzogchen methods, or the ones who went thru Ngondro, Three Roots and then approach Dzogchen? What is your experience?

Thanks,
Mirco
---
Reply
Malcolm Smith July 21, 2011 9:37 AM

My opinion is that those people who receive Dzogchen teachings, and then practice Ngondro, three roots, etc., make the best progress, while at the same time practicing methods from Dzogchen.


You know that's Malcom's blog, right, rai? :lol:
(That Malcom is this Malcom. Just making sure...)



yes yes i know :smile: but i am not really interested in what position anybody holds or support at particular period of time. more i am interested in Malcom's (and other senior students) 20 years of observation on how students progress on the path. i've found it very valuable :smile:
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:34 pm

So far, I have seen no proof that Dzogchen isn't a part of the Buddha's Dharma and as some people try to claim it is a foreign teaching inserted in to the Buddha's Dharma. Dzogchen contains special methods just like all yanas contain special methods. Certainly I believe Dzogchen can be a independent path but it is still the Buddha's Dharma since all the twelve Dzogchen Buddha's taught Dzogchen in the conest of Buddha Dharma. Malcolm say that there is no proof Buddha taught Dzogchen but in his comment on the Narag Tongtrug ChNNR say that Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Manjusri Tantra with Dzogchen instructions. The oldest text we have mentioning Dzogchen are Mahayoga texts like the Guhyagharbha Tantra and "Questions and answers on Vajrasattva" from the Duanhang documents. My personal view of this, until any better proofs comes, is that the three inner Tantras are inseparable and have the same source. So while the two stages are not absolutely necessary, since I don't much buy in to to the ladder theory, they are definitely a part of the context of the Dzogchen teachings. As Manjusrimitra writes ""I am Manjushrimitra, who has attained the siddhi of Yamantaka". So there you got it, my hurting tooth is basically that you guys have nothing but blind faith to counter this.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:26 am

I don't understand what you mean by Buddha's Dharma. Which Buddha's Dharma? The one accepted by which school? Theravadins? Mahayanists? Ch'an, Zen, Pure Land Buddhism? The Gelugpas? Sakyapas, Kagyupas, Nyingmapas? Which? Are you talking about what exactly? Dzogchen is the Buddhas's Dharma in the sense that it is a path to Buddhahood. Are you saying it is also Buddhist? If so, it would be prudent for you to inform us which kind of Buddhism are you referring to so that we can know.
And if such is the case, did Gautama also taught the Bons? You're losing me a little here because I don't know what exactly are you talking about...
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:19 am

heart wrote:So far, I have seen no proof that Dzogchen isn't a part of the Buddha's Dharma and as some people try to claim it is a foreign teaching inserted in to the Buddha's Dharma. Dzogchen contains special methods just like all yanas contain special methods. Certainly I believe Dzogchen can be a independent path but it is still the Buddha's Dharma since all the twelve Dzogchen Buddha's taught Dzogchen in the conest of Buddha Dharma. Malcolm say that there is no proof Buddha taught Dzogchen but in his comment on the Narag Tongtrug ChNNR say that Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Manjusri Tantra with Dzogchen instructions. The oldest text we have mentioning Dzogchen are Mahayoga texts like the Guhyagharbha Tantra and "Questions and answers on Vajrasattva" from the Duanhang documents. My personal view of this, until any better proofs comes, is that the three inner Tantras are inseparable and have the same source. So while the two stages are not absolutely necessary, since I don't much buy in to to the ladder theory, they are definitely a part of the context of the Dzogchen teachings. As Manjusrimitra writes ""I am Manjushrimitra, who has attained the siddhi of Yamantaka". So there you got it, my hurting tooth is basically that you guys have nothing but blind faith to counter this.

/magnus


I am starting to think too much emphasis is being placed on these labels from both sides of this dialogue. Since the word Buddha is just a referent for a fully realized being, I wonder if people would still argue with the statement dropping all foreign words (hahaha except Dzogchen, since all of us in the Dzogchen forum are so attached to that one!): "Dzogchen is the truth (dharma) expressed by fully realized beings (Buddhas)".

Ok, let's try it again, without the parenthesis! "Dzogchen is the truth expressed by fully realized beings".

Is it at all controversial? I am sure at least you and I agree that it is not Magnus. Hopefully nobody else finds it such!

Ok, let's take it a step further: "Fully realized beings also expressed things differently when trying to communicate the truth, so that different types of people could relate to the truth based on where their minds were at". Ok.. then we are back to the 9 yana system, or whatever equivalent there may be in the past or future or in other world systems.. it really does seem quite basic.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:17 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:I don't understand what you mean by Buddha's Dharma. Which Buddha's Dharma? The one accepted by which school? Theravadins? Mahayanists? Ch'an, Zen, Pure Land Buddhism? The Gelugpas? Sakyapas, Kagyupas, Nyingmapas? Which? Are you talking about what exactly? Dzogchen is the Buddhas's Dharma in the sense that it is a path to Buddhahood. Are you saying it is also Buddhist? If so, it would be prudent for you to inform us which kind of Buddhism are you referring to so that we can know.
And if such is the case, did Gautama also taught the Bons? You're losing me a little here because I don't know what exactly are you talking about...


You can take your pick which list of Buddhas you subscribe to, there are several, but since you are Dzogchen practitioner I would guess you would see my post in the perspective of the 12 Dzogchen Buddhas. Buddhist is just a label for people having faith in the Buddha's teaching at this time and place. Buddha's don't teach religion they teach methods for attaining Buddhahood. Dzogchen is one of these methods. You agree?

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:27 am

Adamantine wrote:
I am starting to think too much emphasis is being placed on these labels from both sides of this dialogue. Since the word Buddha is just a referent for a fully realized being, I wonder if people would still argue with the statement dropping all foreign words (hahaha except Dzogchen, since all of us in the Dzogchen forum are so attached to that one!): "Dzogchen is the truth (dharma) expressed by fully realized beings (Buddhas)".

Ok, let's try it again, without the parenthesis! "Dzogchen is the truth expressed by fully realized beings".

Is it at all controversial? I am sure at least you and I agree that it is not Magnus. Hopefully nobody else finds it such!

Ok, let's take it a step further: "Fully realized beings also expressed things differently when trying to communicate the truth, so that different types of people could relate to the truth based on where their minds were at". Ok.. then we are back to the 9 yana system, or whatever equivalent there may be in the past or future or in other world systems.. it really does seem quite basic.


Yes, it is quite simple. In truth the 9 yanas is probably a simplification of the vast numbers of yanas the Buddhas teach. Are all these yanas related? Yes, because they have the same source, the Buddha's realization. So we can call them the Buddha's Dharma or Buddhism or Bon or something else.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:13 am

heart wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
I am starting to think too much emphasis is being placed on these labels from both sides of this dialogue. Since the word Buddha is just a referent for a fully realized being, I wonder if people would still argue with the statement dropping all foreign words (hahaha except Dzogchen, since all of us in the Dzogchen forum are so attached to that one!): "Dzogchen is the truth (dharma) expressed by fully realized beings (Buddhas)".

Ok, let's try it again, without the parenthesis! "Dzogchen is the truth expressed by fully realized beings".

Is it at all controversial? I am sure at least you and I agree that it is not Magnus. Hopefully nobody else finds it such!

Ok, let's take it a step further: "Fully realized beings also expressed things differently when trying to communicate the truth, so that different types of people could relate to the truth based on where their minds were at". Ok.. then we are back to the 9 yana system, or whatever equivalent there may be in the past or future or in other world systems.. it really does seem quite basic.


Yes, it is quite simple. In truth the 9 yanas is probably a simplification of the vast numbers of yanas the Buddhas teach. Are all these yanas related? Yes, because they have the same source, the Buddha's realization. So we can call them the Buddha's Dharma or Buddhism or Bon or something else.

/magnus

If someone other than Dechen Norbu can reply...no.I dont agree at all.
At best Buddhism can be a vehicle for Dzogchen. More frequently it is a potential block to Dzogchen.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:05 am

heart wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:I don't understand what you mean by Buddha's Dharma. Which Buddha's Dharma? The one accepted by which school? Theravadins? Mahayanists? Ch'an, Zen, Pure Land Buddhism? The Gelugpas? Sakyapas, Kagyupas, Nyingmapas? Which? Are you talking about what exactly? Dzogchen is the Buddhas's Dharma in the sense that it is a path to Buddhahood. Are you saying it is also Buddhist? If so, it would be prudent for you to inform us which kind of Buddhism are you referring to so that we can know.
And if such is the case, did Gautama also taught the Bons? You're losing me a little here because I don't know what exactly are you talking about...


You can take your pick which list of Buddhas you subscribe to, there are several, but since you are Dzogchen practitioner I would guess you would see my post in the perspective of the 12 Dzogchen Buddhas. Buddhist is just a label for people having faith in the Buddha's teaching at this time and place. Buddha's don't teach religion they teach methods for attaining Buddhahood. Dzogchen is one of these methods. You agree?

/magnus

Dzogchen teachings are (since you are talking about method).
I have no beef if you consider Dzogchen the teachings of the Buddhas, or teachings to realize Buddhahood. I think everyone would agree with such point. :smile:
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