The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Discuss and learn about the traditional scriptures.

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:46 am

Spirituality wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
mzaur wrote:Doesn't that passage suggest an eternalist view? How can any phenomenon be unchanging and eternal, etc


the eternalist view was meant for the tainted ego self(YOU AND I) this is the false self(no self)
the TRUE SELF is the Buddha,look at the 4 noble truths the 1st 3 are impermanent the 4th noble truth is PERMANENT,for the Buddha is forever without greed,anger,ignorance(defilments) if the Buddha was subject to change then again (IT) would be no different than us,constantly changeing,switching between taints and leverls of purity,that is why the Nirvana sutra states the Buddha is the true refuge for it never changes and is constant.and it says to not take refuge in the other gods for they are changeing and cannot even help themselves.


Actually your explanation does sound etenalist to me. The gods are not suitable for refuge because they are still in samsara, not because they're unchanging.

The fact is that some types of Mahayana Buddhism do slip into eternalism in trying to talk about the Buddha, Buddha nature, dharmadhatu, mahamudra etc. I'm not sure that is a problem as 'son of Buddha' rightly notes: what we all agree on does change is everything we might try and hold on to IN samsara.


MY REPLY hey

Samsarasan is changeing,it is the taint itself.
all life in Buddhism is eternal,an example if you died today(ur body now) would you cease to exist???or would ur life force continue to be reborn???the self would break apart but life itself goes on and the "life force" would continue to be reborn forever.

so if tainted life force continues to EXIST FOREVER,do you think the LIFE force of the Buddha would also continue forever??
there is no such thing as not existing in Buddhisn Buddha or tainted person their is always a continueation of life.(we are not nhilists)

does the Buddha change??
does the Buddha mind die or cease to exist?

also eternalism was meant for the ego/tainted individual self) not the buddha self(true self)

have you gotten a chance to read the Nirvana sutra??

peace and love
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Spirituality » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:45 pm

Honestly, I haven't read the sutra, just responding to the discussion. A quote from the sutra might help determine which of us is being controversial here.

I'd say that yes, the Buddha changes. The person Gautama Buddha died over 2000 years ago, showing that he was as subject to death as the rest of us. As for his Buddha Nature, in my understanding it too changes as the object it's aware of changes: the universe. Of the quality of Buddha Nature AS Buddha nature doesn't change, as such it is beyond samsara.

[though I haven't studied the philosophy enough to be sure, my arguments are basically prasangika in nature]
User avatar
Spirituality
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 7:11 am

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:48 am

Spirituality wrote:Honestly, I haven't read the sutra, just responding to the discussion. A quote from the sutra might help determine which of us is being controversial here.

I'd say that yes, the Buddha changes. The person Gautama Buddha died over 2000 years ago, showing that he was as subject to death as the rest of us. As for his Buddha Nature, in my understanding it too changes as the object it's aware of changes: the universe. Of the quality of Buddha Nature AS Buddha nature doesn't change, as such it is beyond samsara.

[though I haven't studied the philosophy enough to be sure, my arguments are basically prasangika in nature]



MY REPLY:let me compile a massive list along with the chapters it can be found in also note look up the Nirvana sutra translation and read the first 14 chapters (well you only need to read the first 9 honeslty) its about 60 pages with that you will know what im trying to say in teh sutras own words instead of mine.

hold on i will post wehn i get it together(its alot so bear with me)imnot going to send you like one verse or two that can be twisted im going to send like 50.

peace and love
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:12 am

okay here you go I wasnt joking about it probley being easier to just read the whole sutra yourself after about chapter 9 I stopped collecting,their are 46 chapters in all,which means I didnt even cover but 1/4 th the teachings in this post.

Nirvana sutra
Chapter 2 on Cunda
Then the World-Honoured One, the All-Knowledge [“sarvajnana”], the Unsurpassed Trainer, said to Cunda: "This is good, good indeed! I shall now cut off the roots of your poverty and let fall on your field of carnal life the unsurpassed rain of Dharma and call forth the bud of Dharma. You now desire to have from me life, body, power, peace, and unhindered speech. And I shall give to you undying life, body, power, peace, and unhindered speech.

If the Tathagata is placed on the same level as that which is created, he cannot be respected by all the world, man or heaven. What the Tathagata speaks about is that which does not change and is not different. It is the true Dharma. There is none who receives. Hence, O Manjushri! Do not say that the Tathagata is the same as any created thing.

Then Dharmarajaputra Manjushri praised Cunda and said: "Well spoken, well spoken, O good man! You have already done what will beget you an endless life. You well know that the Tathagata is one eternal and unchanging, and is an Uncreate. You now well shield the Tathagata's created-form existence.

chapter 3 on grief
Then, the World-Honoured One praised all the bhiksus and said: "It is good, it is good, that you practise the selflessness meditation." Then all bhiksus said to the Buddhha: "We not only practise the selflessness meditation, but even other meditations, to wit, all those on Suffering, the non-Eternal, and Selflessness. O World-Honoured One! When intoxicated, the mind spins round, and all mountains, rivers, castles, palaces, the sun, moon and stars appear to spin round too. O World-Honoured One! Any person who does not practise the meditation of the non-Eternal and Selflessness cannot be called a sage. Due to indolence, one repeats birth and death. O World-Honoured One! Because of this, we all practise such meditations."
Then the Buddha said to all the bhiksus: "Hear me well, hear me well! Now, you mention the case of an intoxicated person. This refers to knowledge, but not the signification. What do I mean by signification? The intoxicated person sees the sun and moon, which do not move, but he thinks they do. The same is the case with beings. As all illusion and ignorance overhang [the mind], the mind turns upside down and takes Self for non-Self, Eternal for non-Eternal, Purity as non-Pure, and Bliss as sorrow. Overhung by illusion, this thought arises. Though this though arises, the meaning is not gained [realised]. This is as in the case of the intoxicated person who takes what does not move as moving. The Self' signifies the Buddha; 'the Eternal' signifies the Dharmakaya; 'Bliss' signifies Nirvana, and 'the Pure' signifies Dharma. Bhiksus, why is it said that one who has the idea of a Self is arrogant and haughty, traversing round Samsara? Bhiksus, although you might say, 'We also cultivate impermanence, suffering, and non-Self, these three kinds of cultivation have no real value/ meaning. I shall now explain the excellent three ways of cultivating Dharma. To think of suffering as Bliss and to think of Bliss as suffering, is perverse Dharma; to think of the impermanent as the Eternal and to think of the Eternal as impermanent is perverse Dharma; to think of the non-Self [anatman]as the Self [atman] and to think of the Self [atman] as non-Self [anatman] is perverse Dharma; to think of the impure as the Pure and to think of the Pure as impure is perverse Dharma. Whoever has these four kinds of perversion, that person does not know the correct cultivation of dharmas. Bhiksus, you give rise to the idea of Bliss with regard to phenomena associated with suffering; the idea of Eternity with regard to phenomena associated with impermanence; the idea of the Self with regard to phenomena without Self; and the idea of Purity with regard to phenomena that are impure. Both the mundane and also the supramundane have the Eternal, Bliss, the Self, and Purity. Mundane teachings [dharmas] have letters and are without meaning [referents]; the Supramundane [teachings] have letters and meaning. Why? Because mundane people have these four perversions, they are unacquainted with the [true] meaning/ referents. Why? Having these perverse ideas, their minds and vision are distorted. Through these three perversions, mundane people see suffering in Bliss, impermanence in the Eternal, non-Self in the Self, and impurity in the Pure. These are called perversions/ inversions. Because of these perversions/ inversions, mundane people know the letters but not the meaning [referents]. What is the meaning/referent? Non-Self is Samsara, the Self is the Tathagata; impermanence is the sravakas and pratyekabuddhas, the Eternal is the Tathagata's Dharmakaya; suffering is all tirthikas, Bliss is Nirvana; the impure is all compounded [samskrta] dharmas , the Pure is the true Dharma that the Buddha and Bodhisattvas have. This is called non-perversion/ non-inversion. By not being inverted [in one's views], one will know [both] the letter and the meaning. If one desires to be freed from the four perverse/ inverted [views - catur-viparita-drsti], one should know the Eternal, Blissful, the Self and the Pure in this manner."

O you Bhiksus! Do not abide in the thought of the non-Eternal, Suffering, non-Self, and the not-Pure and be in the situation of those people who take stones, bits of wood, and gravel to be the true gem. You must study well the Way, how to act, wherever you go, and “meditate on the Self, the Eternal, Bliss, and the Pure”. Know that the outer forms of the four items which you have learnt up to now are inversions and that anyone who desires to practise the Way should act like the wise man who deftly gets hold of the gem. This refers to the so-called thought of Self, and that of the Eternal, Bliss, and Pure."
QUESTION from monks
Then all the bhiksus said to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! You, the Buddha, said before that all things have no Self, that we should practise this and that, when practised, the thought of Self goes away, and that once the thought of Self is done away with, one does away with arrogance and that, arrogance once done away with, one gains Nirvana. Thus did you say "How might we understand this?"
ANSWER from Buddha
"Know, O you Bhiksus! The same is the case with the Tathagata, the Alms-deserving, the All-Enlightened-One, the Unsurpassed Best Trainer, the Teacher-of-Heaven-and-Earth, the Buddha-World-Honoured One. He comes as a great Doctor and subdues all tirthikas and bad doctors. In the presence of kings and all people, he says: "I shall become the King of doctors and subdue tirthikas." Thus we say: "There is no self, no man, no being, no life, no nurturing, no knowing, none that does, and none that receives." O Bhiksus! Know that what the tirthikas say is like the case of a worm that eats upon [a piece of] wood, from which, by chance, there appears what looks like a letter. Because of this, the Tathagata teaches and says no-self. This is to adjust beings and because he is aware of the occasion. Such non-self is, as occasion arises, spoken of, and it is [also] said that there is the Self. This is as in the case of the learned Doctor, who knows well the medicinal and non-medicinal qualities of milk. It is not as with common mortals, who might measure the size of their own self. Common mortals and the ignorant may measure the size of their own self and say, 'It is like the size of a thumb, like a mustard seed, or like the size of a mote.' When the Tathagata speaks of Self, in no case are things thus. That is why he says: 'All things have no Self.'
Even though he has said that all phenomena [dharmas] are devoid of the Self, it is not that they are completely/ truly devoid of the Self. What is this Self? Any phenomenon [dharma] that is true [satya], real [tattva], eternal [nitya], sovereign/ autonomous/ self-governing [aisvarya], and whose ground/ foundation is unchanging [asraya-aviparinama], is termed 'the Self' [atman]. This is as in the case of the great Doctor who well understands the milk medicine. The same is the case with the Tathagata. For the sake of beings, he says "there is the Self in all things" O you the four classes! Learn Dharma thus!"
CHAPTER 4:ON LONG LIFE
Then the Buddha said to all the congregation: "O all good men and women! You cannot calculate the length of my life.

The Buddha said to Kasyapa: "O good man! Under what circumstances do you bring across your lips all such rough-hewn words against the Tathagata? The life of the Tathagata is the longest and most superior of longest lives. His eternal Dharma is the unsurpassed of all eternal things." Bodhisattva Kasyapa said again to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! How did you, the Tathagata, gain eternal life?" The Buddha said to Bodhisattva Kasyapa: "O good man! There are eight great rivers, which are 1) Ganges, 2) Yamuna, 3) Sarabhu, 4) Ajitavati, 5) Mahi, 6) Indus, 7) Pasu, and 8) Sita. All these eight rivers and other small rivers drain into the great ocean. O Kasyapa! All the great rivers of life of all people, heaven, earth and sky drain into the Tathagata's sea of life. Hence, the length of life of the Tathagata is incalculable. Also, next, O Kasyapa! As an illustration: it is like the case of Lake Anavatapta, which gives rise to four rivers. The same with the Tathagata. He gives rise to all long life-spans (emphasis added). O Kasyapa! As an example: of all eternal things, that of space is the foremost. The same is the case with the Tathagata. He is the foremost of all eternal things. O Kasyapa! This is as in the case of sarpirmanda [most delicious and efficacious medicine], the first of all medicines. The same is the case with the Tathagata. He is the one possessed of the longest life." Bodhisattva Kasyapa said again to the Buddha: "If the life of the Tathagata is thus, you mast live for a kalpa or [just] less than a kalpa and be delivering sermons in the way the great rain falls." "O Kasyapa! Do not entertain the thought of extinction regarding the Tathagata. O Kasyapa! There may be amongst the bhiksus, bhiksunis, upasakas, upasikas, or even among the tirthikas a person who possesses the five divine powers or the unmolested [unlimited] power of a rishi. He may live a kalpa or less than a kalpa; he may be able to fly through the air, and be unmolested [unconstrained] whether he is reclining or sitting. He emits fire from the left side of his body or water from his right side. His body emits smoke and flames like a fire ball. If he desires to live long, he can do as he wills. He can freely lengthen or shorten his life. With such divine power, he has such freedom of power. And how could this not be possible with the Tathagata, who possesses unmolested [unlimited] power in all things? How could it not be that he can live for half a kalpa, a kalpa, 100 kalpas, 100 thousand kalpas, or innumerable kalpas? On account of this, know that “the Tathagata is an eternal and unchanging existence”. The Tathagata's body is a transformed body and not one supported by various kinds of food. In order to pass beings to the other shore, he manifests himself amidst poisonous trees. Hence he manifests himself discarding his carnal body and entering Nirvana. Know, O Kasyapa, that the Buddha is an eternal and unchanging existence. O all of you! Practise the Way in this Paramartha-satya [Truth of the Transcendent Reality], make effort, and practise the Way with one mind; having practised the Way, expound it widely to others."

The Eternity, Bliss, Self, and Purity of the Tathagata thus come about [appear, are realised]. The Tathagata is one who is eternal and unchanging. This is not in the manner in which common mortals and the ignorant of the world say that Brahma is eternal. This eternality is always with the Tathagata and not with whatever else.

"Also, next, O good man! Practise the teaching of the Buddha, Dharma and the life of the Sangha, and abide in the thought of the Eternal. These three things do not contradict one another. There is no form of the non-eternal [there], no change. Any person practising these three as things which differ fails in the Three Refuges which are pure. This we should know. This is to say that such a person lacks a place to abide in. No precept is fully learned; no fruit can come about of sravakas or pratyekabuddhas. Anyone who abides in the thought of the Eternal in this All-Wonderfulness has a place to take refuge in. O good man! It is like the shadow accompanying a tree. The same is the case with the Tathagata. As there is the Eternal, there is a refuge that can be taken. It is not non-eternal. If it is said that the Tathagata is non-eternal, he cannot be a refuge for all the heavens and people of the world."
CHAPTER 5 ON THE ADAMANTINE BODY
“Then the World-Honoured One said to Kasyapa: "O good man! The body of the Tathagata is one that is eternal, one that is indestructible, and one that is adamantine, one that is not sustained by various kinds of food. It is the Dharma-Body." Kasyapa said to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! We do not see such a body as you speak of. What we see is one which is non-eternal, destructible, of dust, one sustained by various kinds of food. How? In that you, the Tathagata, are now about to enter Nirvana." The Buddha said to Kasyapa: "Do not say that the body of the Tathagata is not strong, can easily be broken, and is the same as that of common mortals. O good man! Know that the body of the Tathagata is as indestructible as that which stands for countless billions of kalpas. It is neither the body of man or heaven, not one that fears, not one sustained by various kinds of food. The body of the Tathagata is one that is not a body and yet is a body. It is one not born and one that does not die. It is one that does not learn or practise. It is one innumerable and boundless and one that does not leave any tracks behind. It knows not and has no form to represent it. It is one ultimately pure. It does not shake. It does not receive, nor does it do [act]. It does not abide, does not make. It is tasteless and unmixed. It is an "is" and yet is not something created. It is neither action nor fruition [i.e. it is beyond Karma]. It is not one made, not one that dies. It is no mind; it is one not countable [whose dimensions can be reckoned]; It is the All-Wonderful, the one Eternal, and the one not presumable.
Thus, I know now that the Tathagata is eternal and indestructible and that there is no change with him. I shall now study well and expound it widely to people."
Then the Buddha praised Bodhisattva Kasyapa and said: "Well said, well said! The body of the Tathagata is adamantine and indestructible. You, Bodhisattva, now have the right view and right understanding. If you see clearly thus, you will see the adamantine and indestructible body of the Tathagata just as you see things reflected in a mirror."
CHAPTER 7 ON THE 4 ASPECTS
If one says that the Tathagata, Dharma and Sangha are non-eternal, this is cheating one's own self and also others. I would sooner cut out my tongue with a sharp sword than ever say that the Tathagata, Dharma and Sangha are non-eternal. I might indeed hear others saying this, but I will never believe it.
If the World-Honoured One were to talk first about the Eternal, a person hearing this might say that what he says is the same as what the tirthikas [heterodox believers] say, and discount what he says and go away." I then said to the woman: "When the child grows up and becomes big, and when it can come and go by itself, whatever is eaten will be digested, even when indigestible [previously]. The cream that was taken before will not be enough to support [that person]. The same is the case with all my sravaka disciples. It is as in the case of your child. They cannot digest this eternal Dharma. That is why I speak about suffering and impermanence
Why is that? Because the sravaka disciples abide in the thought of change and say that the Tathagata truly dies. But actually I do not. This is like your going to far-away places and not yet coming back home, at which your bad sons say that you have died, whereas you have not died. All Bodhisattvas say that the Tathagata never changes. This is similar to your good sons, who do not say that you are dead. Hence, I entrust the unsurpassed, undisclosed treasure to all Bodhisattvas." O good man! If any person says that the Buddha is Eternal and does not change, know that the Buddha is present in that house. This is corrcting others.
"How can the Tathagata be one eternal and unchanging?" O Kasyapa! One who reproaches me thus commits slander, which is wrong. O Kasyapa! You must not entertain such a notion and say that the nature of the Tathagata perishes. O Kasyapa! We do not place the annihilation of illusion in the category of matter [rupa]. Why not? Because of the fact of the ultimacy of Eternity. Hence, we say Eternal. [Nirvanic] quietude has nothing to supercede it. All phenomenal existences are done away with, with nothing remaining. This indicates what is fresh, clear, eternal, and unretrogressive. That is why we say that Nirvana is eternal. It is the same with the Tathagata. He is eternal, with no change. "Stars sweep". This refers to illusion. Once swept, all is gone and no trace remains of any existence. This indicates that all Tathagatas are those who have done away with illusion and are no longer in the five realms. This means that the Tathagata is one eternal and that there is no change [with him]. Also next, O Kasyapa! It is the Dharma which is the teacher of all Buddhas. Hence, the Tathagata respectfully makes offerings. As the Dharma is eternal, so too are all Buddhas eternal."
Bodhisattva Kasyapa said again to the Buddha: "If the flame of illusion dies out, the Tathagata must also die out. This indicates that there can be no ground where the Tathagata is eternal. This is similar to the situation in which hot iron slag can no longer be seen when the red colour disappears. The same with the Tathagata and illusion. Gone, there is no other pace to go to. And it is like the case of iron. The heat and the red colour gone, there remains nothing to be seen. The same with the Tathagata. Once extinguished, what remains is non-eternal. The fire of illusion done away with, he enters Nirvana. This tells us that the Tathagata is non-eternal." "O good man! The iron you speak of refers to common mortals. Illusion done away with, the common mortal comes about again. That is why we say non-eternal. This is not the case with the Tathagata. Gone, there is no coming about. Hence, eternal." Kasyapa further said to the Buddha: "If we place the colour-robbed iron back into the fire, the red colour will return. It it is thus with the Tathgata, illusion will again form. If illusion again forms, this is nothing but the non-eternal." The Buddha said: "O Kasyapa! Do not say that the Tathagata is non-eternal. Why not? Because the Tathagata is one Eternal. O good man! When wood is burnt, extinction comes about, and there remain behind the ashes. When illusion is done away with, there remains Nirvana.
People further say: "The prince of this king, of the great clan of Gautama, renounced worldly pleasures and sought the supramundane." But I had long since been away from worldly love and desire. I merely displayed all such things. Everybody says that I am a man. But truth to tell, I am not. O good man! I manifest myself in Jambudvipa and often enter Nirvana. But in truth I do not enter Nirvana at all. Yet all people say that the Tathagata is now dying. But the nature of the Tathagata, truth to tell, eternally does not die out. So you should know that I am one Eternal and Unchanging.
Thus, no ageing occurs in the case of the Tathagata. As there is no ageing, there is no death.
This state of no illness is the Tathagata. Death is the breaking up of the body and the ending of life. There is no death here [in emancipation]. What there is is the deathless ["'amrta"' - the state of immortality], which is true emancipation. True emancipation is the Tathagata. The Tathagata is accomplished in such virtues [blessings]. How could we [ever] say that the Tathagata is non-eternal? Anything such as the non-eternal can never exist there. It is an Adamantine Body. How could it be non-eternal? As a result, we do not say that there is any ending of life with the Tathagata. With the Tathagata, what there is is purity; there is no defilement. The Tathagata's body does not get defiled by the womb. It is like the pundarika-lotus, whose nature is pure. The same with the Tathagata and emancipation. Thus, emancipation is at once the Tathagata. That is why the Tathagata is pure and undefiled.
chapter 8 on the 4 dependables

do not slander, but uphold, reicte, and copy this sutra and also cause others to copy it, they themselves listening well to what is said in this sutra and making others listen well too, reciting and protecting, strongly upholding and - as they pity all beings - making offerings to this sutra, urging others also to make offerings, to honour, respect, recite, and worship it and thus perfectly understand and penetrate its meaning. “That is to say that the Tathagata is Eternal and Unchanging, that he is the utmost peace itself, and that” “all beings have the Buddha-Nature” [“buddhata”]. They well attain all the teachings of the Tathagata, make offerings to all such Buddhas and build up a house of unsurpassed Wonderful Dharma, uphold and protect it
Also, the sravaka vehicle is the non-grasping [non-understanding] of the [real] meaning, and unsurpassed Mahayana is the grasping of the meaning. If a person says that the Tathagata is non-eternal and that he changes, this indicates that this person has not yet arrived at [an understanding of] the meaning. If a person says that the Tathagata is Eternal and Unchanging, this shows that that person has arrived at the meaning. If a person says that what the sravaka says can be understood, this indicates non-grasping of the meaning. If a person says that the Tathagata is a product of feeding, this is non-grasping of the meaning. If a person says that the Tathagata is Eternal and Unchanging, this is full grasping of the meaning. If a person says that the Tathagata enters Nirvana as in the case of fuel that has burnt out, this is non-grasping of the meaning. If a person says that the Tathagata enters the world of “Dharmata”, this is grasping the meaning.
"A person [might] say that all gets extinguished, implying that the entrance of the Tathagata into Nirvana constitutes extinction.
"A person [might] say that all is non-eternal, meaning that even Nirvana is non-eternal, and the same with suffering, void, and non-self too. That is why we say that such is non-grasping of the import of the sutras. One cannot depend upon such.

Peace and Love (sorry about the length)
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Spirituality » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:36 pm

That was way more than necessary, but clear, at least in this translation. You're right: in this translation this sutra does teach Buddha is eternal and is, as such, hard to reconcile with traditional Buddhism.

I'd love to hear what someone with access to the original language who knows something of the Buddhist history of ideas has to say about this text.
User avatar
Spirituality
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 7:11 am

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Will » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:18 pm

In addition to this sutra, the Srimala Sutra, Tathagatagarbha Sutra, Uttaratantra etc. taught a True Self, which sounds similar to Atman. But it is not quite the same.

Anyway, this paper is useful in trying to bridge the gap between the prajnaparamita turning of the wheel and the tathagatagarbha turning:

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha191.htm
Revealing one essence: this means the inherently pure, complete, luminous essence, which is pure of its own nature. -- Fa-tsang
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Anders » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:57 pm

Spirituality wrote:That was way more than necessary, but clear, at least in this translation. You're right: in this translation this sutra does teach Buddha is eternal and is, as such, hard to reconcile with traditional Buddhism.

I'd love to hear what someone with access to the original language who knows something of the Buddhist history of ideas has to say about this text.


IIRC, when Dr Stephen Hodge posted on E-sangha, his position was that the Nirvana sutra was rather unapologetic about its eternalism.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
User avatar
Anders
 
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:01 pm

Anders wrote:
Spirituality wrote:That was way more than necessary, but clear, at least in this translation. You're right: in this translation this sutra does teach Buddha is eternal and is, as such, hard to reconcile with traditional Buddhism.

I'd love to hear what someone with access to the original language who knows something of the Buddhist history of ideas has to say about this text.


IIRC, when Dr Stephen Hodge posted on E-sangha, his position was that the Nirvana sutra was rather unapologetic about its eternalism.



Yes, and he is perhaps THE expert on this text.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:32 pm

Spirituality wrote:That was way more than necessary, but clear, at least in this translation. You're right: in this translation this sutra does teach Buddha is eternal and is, as such, hard to reconcile with traditional Buddhism.

I'd love to hear what someone with access to the original language who knows something of the Buddhist history of ideas has to say about this text.


Reconcile with which traditional Buddhism? Do you mean Theravada? Just because Mahayana seemingly has many teachings not in accord with Theravada. Otherwise, however, the Nirvana Sutra is a basis of traditional Buddhism, at least in East Asia. The Buddha is eternal. But this eternity is the unborn nature of all, it is the dharmadhatu. In other words, emptiness.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4126
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:23 am

Astus wrote:
Spirituality wrote:That was way more than necessary, but clear, at least in this translation. You're right: in this translation this sutra does teach Buddha is eternal and is, as such, hard to reconcile with traditional Buddhism.

I'd love to hear what someone with access to the original language who knows something of the Buddhist history of ideas has to say about this text.


Reconcile with which traditional Buddhism? Do you mean Theravada? Just because Mahayana seemingly has many teachings not in accord with Theravada. Otherwise, however, the Nirvana Sutra is a basis of traditional Buddhism, at least in East Asia. The Buddha is eternal. But this eternity is the unborn nature of all, it is the dharmadhatu. In other words, emptiness.



HEY ASTUS emptiness isnt considered dharmadhatu in tathagatagarbha,(the nirvana sutra/Lotus sutra) states it was teachings to help one end tainted individual self(false self) not the actual goal.

LOTUS SUTRA chapter 3

Formerly I was attached to erroneous views,
acting as teacher to the Brahmans.
But the World-Honored One, knowing what was in my mind,
rooted out my errors and preached nirvana.
I was freed of all my errors
and gained understanding of the Dharma(LAW) of emptiness.

At that time my mind told me
I had reached the stage of extinction,
but now I realize
that was not true extinction.

MAHAPARINIRVANA SUTRA chapter 7

If the World-Honoured One were to talk first about the Eternal, a person hearing this might say that what he says is the same as what the tirthikas [heterodox believers] say, and discount what he says and go away." I then said to the woman: "When the child grows up and becomes big, and when it can come and go by itself, whatever is eaten will be digested, even when indigestible [previously]. The cream that was taken before will not be enough to support [that person]. The same is the case with all my sravaka disciples. It is as in the case of your child. They cannot digest this eternal Dharma. That is why I speak about suffering and impermanence.

"Moreover, emancipation is termed that which severs all conditioned phenomena [samskrta-dharmas], gives rise to all untainted [anasrava], wholseome qualities / phenomena and eliminates the various paths/ approaches, that is to say, Self, non-Self, not-Self and not non-Self. It merely severs attachment and does not sever the view of the Self/ the seeing of the Self/ the vision of the Self [atma-drsti]. The view of the Self is termed the 'Buddha-dhatu' [Buddha-Nature]. The Buddha-dhatu is true emancipation, and true emancipation is the Tathagata.

"Also, emancipation is the "not-empty-empty". "Empty-empty" is non-possession. Non-possession is the emancipation which the tirthikas and Nirgrantha Jnatiputras [Jains] presume upon [base themselves upon]. But, in truth, the Nirgranthas do not possess emancipation. So we say "empty-empty". Not-empty-empty is true emancipation. True emancipation is the Tathagata.

"Also, emancipation is the "not-empty". The pot in which we put water, drink, milk, cream, butter, honey, etc., can well be called the water pot and suchlike, even when there is no water, drink, cream, butter, honey or any other thing in it. And yet, we cannot say that the pot is either empty or not-empty. If we say empty, there cannot be any colour, smell, taste or touch. If we say not-empty, what we see is that there is nothing in it such as water, drink or any other thing. We can say neither matter ["rupa"] nor non-matter ["arupa"]; we can say neither empty nor not-empty. If we say empty, there can be no Eternity, Bliss, Self, and Purity. If not-empty, who is the one blessed with Eternity, Bliss, Self, and Purity? Thus, we should say neither empty nor not-empty. Empty will entail [the notion] that the 25 existences, all illusions, suffering, the phases of life, and all actual actions do not exist. When there is no cream in the pot, we may say empty. Not-empty points to Truth, to whatever is Good, Eternal, Bliss, Self, Pure, Immovable and Unchanging. It is as in the case of taste and touch regarding the pot. That is why we say not-empty. In consequence, we may say that emancipation is as in the case of the pot. The pot will break in certain circumstances. But this is not so with emancipation. It cannot break. What is indestructible is true emancipation. True emancipation is the Tathagata.

MAHAPARINIRVANA SUTRA CHAPTER 10

If a person does not know where suffering arises and says that there cannot be any Wonderful Dharma or what is Eternal, and that all turns to nothingness, that person, in consequence, will repeat transmigration for innumerable kalpas to come, suffering all kinds of sorrow. If a person says that Dharma is Eternal and that there is no change, this is knowing the cause, and this is the noble truth of the cause of suffering. If one does not so practise, this is the cause of suffering and not the noble truth of the cause.

"We say "truth of the extinction of suffering". If a person practises many things [teachings] and the way of nothingness, this is non-good. Why so? Because this annuls all laws and breaks the true storehouse of the Tathagata. Any practice of this category is the practising of nothingness. One who practises the extinction of suffering acts against what all tirthikas do. If the practice of nothingness is the truth of extinction, there are tirthikas who also practise the teaching of nothingness; we must say that they too possess the truth of extinction. A person says: "There is the Tathagatagarbha [Buddha-Womb - the pristine mind under cover of illusion]. One cannot see this. But if one does away with all illusions, one may indeed enter." It is thus. By the raising of such a mind [i.e. by cultivating such an attitude of mind], one gains freedom in all things. If a person practises the Way of the hidden storehouse, selflessness, and emptiness, such a person repeats birth and death for innumerable ages to come and suffers from sorrow. A person who does not do such practices may certainly, even though he might have illusion, soon do away with it. Why so? Because he well knows the undisclosed [secret, hidden] storehouse of the Tathagata. This is the noble truth of the extinction of suffering. Any person who practises extinction in such a way is my disciple. A person not practising the Way thus is one who practises emptiness. This is not the noble truth of extinction.

Peace and Love
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:34 am

Will wrote:In addition to this sutra, the Srimala Sutra, Tathagatagarbha Sutra, Uttaratantra etc. taught a True Self, which sounds similar to Atman. But it is not quite the same.

Anyway, this paper is useful in trying to bridge the gap between the prajnaparamita turning of the wheel and the tathagatagarbha turning:

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha191.htm



HEY WILL

The paper you posted doesnt bridges the gap between the prajnaparamita and the Tathagatagarbha it trys to redefine Tathagatagarbha as "emptiness"

the verses I posted to ASTUS will show you that Tathagatagarbha isnt emptiness(dont get me wrong emptiness aspects are found in the Tathagatagarbha and its doctrine)BUT the Law of emptiness was taught to be provisional by the Lotus sutra and simply something to help end tainted false self(non self/emptiness) in the Mahaparanirvana sutra,it was not the goal itself,Tathagatagarbha is enlightenment that has (DIRT/YOU) on it and cannot be seen by anyone except a 10th level Bodhisattva(and they only see the glimmer)
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:38 am

Spirituality wrote:That was way more than necessary, but clear, at least in this translation. You're right: in this translation this sutra does teach Buddha is eternal and is, as such, hard to reconcile with traditional Buddhism.

I'd love to hear what someone with access to the original language who knows something of the Buddhist history of ideas has to say about this text.



HEY SPIRITUALITY

traditional buddhism teaches much of the same thing.the self in the majjhima nikaya was always tooken to be the tainted self.which was changeing and apart of samsarasan,

the pali canon made it clear that Buddha neither dies nor is reborn and is the teacher of the deathless(immortality)i'm mining you a qoute right now.
User avatar
Son of Buddha
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:55 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:emptiness isnt considered dharmadhatu in tathagatagarbha,(the nirvana sutra/Lotus sutra) states it was teachings to help one end tainted individual self(false self) not the actual goal.


Consider these passages from the Nirvana Sutra. Page number is according to the common PDF edition.

"The Truth is the Tathagata. The Tathagata is the True; the True is the Void; the Void is the True; the True is the Buddha-Nature; the Buddha-Nature is the True."
(p. 159)

"O good man! All that is made is not eternal. The Void is not anything made. So, it is eternal. The Buddha-Nature is not what is made. So, it is eternal. "The Void is the Buddha-Nature; the Buddha-Nature is the Tathagata; the Tathagata is not what has been made. What has not been made is Eternal."
(p. 162)

"How does the Bodhisattva meditate on the Void of nature ["prakrti-shunyata" - Emptiness of primordial matter]? This Bodhisattva-mahasattva sees that the original nature of all elements is all void. These are the five skandhas, the 18 realms, the 12 spheres, the Eternal, the non-Eternal, suffering, Bliss, the Pure, the impure, Self, and non-Self. In all such things, he sees no nature of their own. This is how the Bodhisattva-mahasattva meditates on the Void of nature."
(p. 194)

"When the Bodhisattva-mahasattva practises Great Nirvana, he knows and sees the universe and he realises that the real state is all-void and that there is nothing that one possesses, and that there is nothing that has any mode of harmonisation or perception. And what he gains is such a phase [state of realisation] as the unleakable [i.e. undefiled], non-doing, the phantomic, the burning flame of the hot season, and the all-empty phase of a gandharvan castle."
(p. 257)

"He practises "Paramartha-satya" [Ultimate Reality] and the Ultimate Void. Why? Because all Bodhisattvas always thoroughly practise the natures and characteristics of the Void. By practising the Void, he can now know what he did not know in the past. What does he know? He knows that there is no self and what one possesses. All beings have the Buddha-Nature. He knows that by reason of the Buddha-Nature, even the icchantika, when he abandons the mind that he possesses, can indeed attain unsurpassed Enlightenment. Such is not what sravakas and pratyekabuddhas can know."
(p. 282)

"Now, hearing Dharma relates to the 11 shunyatas. Due to these voids, we see no form in anything. Now, hearing Dharma begins with the first aspiration and proceeds up to the ultimate unsurpassed Bodhi Mind. By gaining the first aspiration, one gains Great Nirvana. Through hearing, one does not gain Great Nirvana; by practising, one attains Great Nirvana."
(p. 293)

"What is the True? One knows well the phases of Nirvana, the Buddha-Nature, the Tathagata, Dharma, the priest, the Real State, and the Void. This is what is True."
(p. 296)

"The Buddha-Nature is none other than the All-Void of "Paramartha-satya" [Ultimate Truth]. The All-Void of "Paramartha-satya" is Wisdom. We say "All-Void"."
(p. 318)

"The Middle Path is the Buddha-Nature. For this reason, the Buddha-Nature is Eternal and there is no change. As ignorance overspreads [them], all beings are unable to see. The sravaka and pratyekabuddha see the All-Void of all things. But they do not see the non-Void. Or they see the non-Self of all things, but they do not see the Self. Because of this, they are unable to gain the All-Void of "Paramartha-satya". Since they fail to gain the All-Void of "Paramartha-satya", they fail to enact the Middle Path. Since there is no Middle Path, there is no seeing of the Buddha- Nature."
(p. 319)

"The samadhi resultant from right thinking is right meditation. One abiding in right meditation sees all things as Void. This is right Wisdom. One perfect in right Wisdom segregates his self from all the bonds of defilement. This is Emancipation. "The person who has gained Emancipation praises it to all beings and says that this Emancipation is Eternal and Unchanging. This is the correct praising of Emancipation. This is unsurpassed Mahaparinirvana."
(p. 327)

"The Buddha-Nature of beings is not-one and not-two. The equality spoken of regarding all Buddhas is like the Void. All beings possess it. Anybody who indeed practises the Noble Eightfold Path gains - one should know - a bright view."
(p. 352)

"The Eternal of the Tathagata is the Self. The Dharmakaya "[Dharma-Body]" of the Tathagata is unboundedness, unobstructedness, birthlessness, undyingness, and the eight unmolestednesses. This is the Self. The beings, truth to tell, do not have such a Self and what the Self possesses. Only because of the fact that a person absolutely attains the absoute Void of "Paramartha-satya" do we say the Buddha-Nature."
(p. 389)

"The Buddha-Nature of the being is like the Void. The Void is not past, not future, and not present. it is not in, nor out; it is not within the boundaries of colour, sound, taste, and touch. It is the same with the Buddha-Nature."
(p. 414)

"If there is nothing, this is the Void. The same is the case with the Buddha-Nature, too. O good man! As the Void is empty, it does not fall into the category of the Three Times. As the Buddha-Nature is Eternal, it is not within the category of the Three Times."
(p. 440)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4126
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:19 pm

According to Hodge there are two disctinct sections. It seems you are citing from parts that are not regarded as core portions, but rather later interpolations meant to bring the MPNS in line with a more standard "Buddhist read:


However, Dharmakṣema's translation of the Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa-sūtra extends for a further thirty juan beyond the accepted core text of this sutra. The provenance and authenticity of the Sanskrit text, if such existed, underlying this part of his translation has been debated amongst scholars for decades, with many doubting that it is a text of Indian origin. The chief reasons for this skepticism are these: no traces of a extended Sanskrit text has ever been found, while Sanskrit manuscript fragments of twenty four separate pages distributed right across the core portion of the Mahāparinirvāṇa-sūtra have been found over the past hundred years in various parts of Asia; no quotations are known from this latter portion in any Indian commentaries or sutra anthologies; and no other translator in China or Tibet ever found Sanskrit copies of this portion.[12]:12-13 The Chinese monk-translator Yijing travelled widely through India and parts South East Asia over a twenty-five year period. In his account of "Eminent Monks who Went West in Search of the Dharma" (大唐西域求法高僧傳 T2066), he mentions that he searched for a copy of the enlarged Mahaparinirvāṇa-sūtra through all that time, but only found manuscripts corresponding to the core portion of this work.[5] For these reasons, textual scholars generally regard the authenticity of the latter portion as dubious: they surmise it may have been a local Central Asian composition at best or else written by Dharmakṣema himself who had both the ability and the motive for doing so.[5]:124-5[14] As a consequence, specialist scholars accept that this latter portion of the Mahāparinirvāṇa-sūtra translated by Dharmakṣema has no value for the history of the tathāgata-garbha concept and related doctrines during their development in India.[12][6]:163-4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana_M ... vana_Sutra



Astus wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:emptiness isnt considered dharmadhatu in tathagatagarbha,(the nirvana sutra/Lotus sutra) states it was teachings to help one end tainted individual self(false self) not the actual goal.


Consider these passages from the Nirvana Sutra. Page number is according to the common PDF edition.

"The Truth is the Tathagata. The Tathagata is the True; the True is the Void; the Void is the True; the True is the Buddha-Nature; the Buddha-Nature is the True."
(p. 159)

"O good man! All that is made is not eternal. The Void is not anything made. So, it is eternal. The Buddha-Nature is not what is made. So, it is eternal. "The Void is the Buddha-Nature; the Buddha-Nature is the Tathagata; the Tathagata is not what has been made. What has not been made is Eternal."
(p. 162)

"How does the Bodhisattva meditate on the Void of nature ["prakrti-shunyata" - Emptiness of primordial matter]? This Bodhisattva-mahasattva sees that the original nature of all elements is all void. These are the five skandhas, the 18 realms, the 12 spheres, the Eternal, the non-Eternal, suffering, Bliss, the Pure, the impure, Self, and non-Self. In all such things, he sees no nature of their own. This is how the Bodhisattva-mahasattva meditates on the Void of nature."
(p. 194)

"When the Bodhisattva-mahasattva practises Great Nirvana, he knows and sees the universe and he realises that the real state is all-void and that there is nothing that one possesses, and that there is nothing that has any mode of harmonisation or perception. And what he gains is such a phase [state of realisation] as the unleakable [i.e. undefiled], non-doing, the phantomic, the burning flame of the hot season, and the all-empty phase of a gandharvan castle."
(p. 257)

"He practises "Paramartha-satya" [Ultimate Reality] and the Ultimate Void. Why? Because all Bodhisattvas always thoroughly practise the natures and characteristics of the Void. By practising the Void, he can now know what he did not know in the past. What does he know? He knows that there is no self and what one possesses. All beings have the Buddha-Nature. He knows that by reason of the Buddha-Nature, even the icchantika, when he abandons the mind that he possesses, can indeed attain unsurpassed Enlightenment. Such is not what sravakas and pratyekabuddhas can know."
(p. 282)

"Now, hearing Dharma relates to the 11 shunyatas. Due to these voids, we see no form in anything. Now, hearing Dharma begins with the first aspiration and proceeds up to the ultimate unsurpassed Bodhi Mind. By gaining the first aspiration, one gains Great Nirvana. Through hearing, one does not gain Great Nirvana; by practising, one attains Great Nirvana."
(p. 293)

"What is the True? One knows well the phases of Nirvana, the Buddha-Nature, the Tathagata, Dharma, the priest, the Real State, and the Void. This is what is True."
(p. 296)

"The Buddha-Nature is none other than the All-Void of "Paramartha-satya" [Ultimate Truth]. The All-Void of "Paramartha-satya" is Wisdom. We say "All-Void"."
(p. 318)

"The Middle Path is the Buddha-Nature. For this reason, the Buddha-Nature is Eternal and there is no change. As ignorance overspreads [them], all beings are unable to see. The sravaka and pratyekabuddha see the All-Void of all things. But they do not see the non-Void. Or they see the non-Self of all things, but they do not see the Self. Because of this, they are unable to gain the All-Void of "Paramartha-satya". Since they fail to gain the All-Void of "Paramartha-satya", they fail to enact the Middle Path. Since there is no Middle Path, there is no seeing of the Buddha- Nature."
(p. 319)

"The samadhi resultant from right thinking is right meditation. One abiding in right meditation sees all things as Void. This is right Wisdom. One perfect in right Wisdom segregates his self from all the bonds of defilement. This is Emancipation. "The person who has gained Emancipation praises it to all beings and says that this Emancipation is Eternal and Unchanging. This is the correct praising of Emancipation. This is unsurpassed Mahaparinirvana."
(p. 327)

"The Buddha-Nature of beings is not-one and not-two. The equality spoken of regarding all Buddhas is like the Void. All beings possess it. Anybody who indeed practises the Noble Eightfold Path gains - one should know - a bright view."
(p. 352)

"The Eternal of the Tathagata is the Self. The Dharmakaya "[Dharma-Body]" of the Tathagata is unboundedness, unobstructedness, birthlessness, undyingness, and the eight unmolestednesses. This is the Self. The beings, truth to tell, do not have such a Self and what the Self possesses. Only because of the fact that a person absolutely attains the absoute Void of "Paramartha-satya" do we say the Buddha-Nature."
(p. 389)

"The Buddha-Nature of the being is like the Void. The Void is not past, not future, and not present. it is not in, nor out; it is not within the boundaries of colour, sound, taste, and touch. It is the same with the Buddha-Nature."
(p. 414)

"If there is nothing, this is the Void. The same is the case with the Buddha-Nature, too. O good man! As the Void is empty, it does not fall into the category of the Three Times. As the Buddha-Nature is Eternal, it is not within the category of the Three Times."
(p. 440)
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Will » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:43 pm

The view of "specialist scholars" is not relevant to the influence on the buddhadharma & generations of practitioners of the "standard" sutra.
Revealing one essence: this means the inherently pure, complete, luminous essence, which is pure of its own nature. -- Fa-tsang
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:04 pm

Will wrote:The view of "specialist scholars" is not relevant to the influence on the buddhadharma & generations of practitioners of the "standard" sutra.



The point is that part of the sutra under question, which "normalizes" the view of the MPNS does not seem to be present in any other recension. It certainly is not in the Tibetan version. Based in that, we can consider that the original Tathagatagarbha theory was fully eternalist.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:43 pm

Malcolm,

I'm not doubting Hodge's expertise at all. However, the quotes I collected are from different parts of the sutra. In fact, at the final part it has explanations on the differentiation between what is void and what is non-void. Also, the Nirvana Sutra played an important role in Tiantai and to some extent in Chan. Neither of them had problem matching it with the teachings of Prajnaparamita and Mind Only. As for those who specialised in the Nirvana Sutra before Tiantai, I don't know about them.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4126
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:44 pm

Astus wrote:Malcolm,
In fact, at the final part it has explanations on the differentiation between what is void and what is non-void.


Right, from the section regarded as apocryphal which has no correspondence in any other early version of the sutra.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Will » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Will wrote:The view of "specialist scholars" is not relevant to the influence on the buddhadharma & generations of practitioners of the "standard" sutra.



The point is that part of the sutra under question, which "normalizes" the view of the MPNS does not seem to be present in any other recension. It certainly is not in the Tibetan version. Based in that, we can consider that the original Tathagatagarbha theory was fully eternalist.


Sounds like an old Namdrol "point" - my point is different.
Revealing one essence: this means the inherently pure, complete, luminous essence, which is pure of its own nature. -- Fa-tsang
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:49 pm

Will wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Will wrote:The view of "specialist scholars" is not relevant to the influence on the buddhadharma & generations of practitioners of the "standard" sutra.



The point is that part of the sutra under question, which "normalizes" the view of the MPNS does not seem to be present in any other recension. It certainly is not in the Tibetan version. Based in that, we can consider that the original Tathagatagarbha theory was fully eternalist.


Sounds like an old Namdrol "point" - my point is different.



Yes, but your point has little bearing on the original meaning of the MPSN sutra as a text in its own right, apart from the various sectarian uses and interpretations of it there may be been. I was discussing the fact that originally the MPNS introduced a eternalism into Buddhism.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

PreviousNext

Return to Sūtra Studies

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

>