My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Anders » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:15 pm

I am not really seeing in what way he is to blame based on this thread. The only measure of responsibility he owns here is in the sense that it is good practise to adopt responsibility for all things in one's life and examine what could have lead to this from his part and how to avoid such outcomes in the future. But in any common sense of 'bearing reasponsibility' I don't think there is a finger to be pointed here.

The reaction from the other party is ridiculously disproportionate. A few tulku tweets is utterly harmless.

Andrew, I am sorry for your situation. Shit happens to everyone in Samsara at some point, I guess. I hope you manage to deal with it with wisdom and compassion to the best of your ability. And also that others aren't put in similar predicaments in the future.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby kirtu » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:34 pm

Anders wrote:I am not really seeing in what way he is to blame based on this thread.


Inappropriate speech and being malicious (although apparently not to anything close to the level of the people supposedly associated with KPC). Secondly he is a kind of teacher since he claims his primary interest is in helping people attain kensho. Therefore a pattern of sustained inappropriate behaviour (sustained teasing) is wrong and brings into question the validity of his kensho*.

Yes I know how Twitter works. It's just an RSS feed limited arbitrarily to what, 180 characters or so. You have a legal "right" to behave like a village idiot on your feed, that's true. Others who have subscribed to your feed and then are engage in malicious speech can be blocked. So if you haven't done that, you should. If people have threatened you you should take legal action. You should also talk to your congresspeople, the ACLU, the EFF (impounding computers for a year is not reasonable behaviour and may have damaged your economic status), and the Inspector General of the FBI (or whatever equivalent they have) about the FBI misbehavior/manipulation. The FBI is not the Statsi.

And quit obsessing over these people. You are obsessing because you are visiting their website to see what they said about you (just like adolescents). If they said anything harmful them take legal action.

Kirt

*people who have experienced kensho can make lots of mistakes and be malicious themselves. Kensho is just a glimpse. But a pattern of sustained error or maliciousness directed at a particular object can't happen after kensho. Kensho entails seeing the emptiness of mind at lest momentarily. So a person can stay enmeshed in their particular set of mind poisons but they cannot maintain sustain anger or hatred. And when they do something like sustained drinking, drugs, sexual involvement (I mean something in some sense inappropriate like sustained serial copulation just for the sex and worse) then they see through this quickly and tend to drop it (although it can happen again until all that stuff is purified).
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Anders » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:02 pm

kirtu wrote:Inappropriate speech and being malicious (although apparently not to anything close to the level of the people supposedly associated with KPC).


Th question to be asked here is: Could one from his behaviour reasonably expect a reaction of such proportion? The answer is - not even close. In other words, he bears little responsibility for what happened in any common sense of the word. And that is imo the sense that should be used when evaluating the actions of others, even if you hold yourself to a higher standard. I don't think the criticism levelled at him here is appropriate.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:08 pm

kirtu wrote:
Anders wrote:I am not really seeing in what way he is to blame based on this thread.


Inappropriate speech and being malicious (although apparently not to anything close to the level of the people supposedly associated with KPC). Secondly he is a kind of teacher since he claims his primary interest is in helping people attain kensho. Therefore a pattern of sustained inappropriate behaviour (sustained teasing) is wrong and brings into question the validity of his kensho*.

Yes I know how Twitter works. It's just an RSS feed limited arbitrarily to what, 180 characters or so. You have a legal "right" to behave like a village idiot on your feed, that's true. Others who have subscribed to your feed and then are engage in malicious speech can be blocked. So if you haven't done that, you should. If people have threatened you you should take legal action. You should also talk to your congresspeople, the ACLU, the EFF (impounding computers for a year is not reasonable behaviour and may have damaged your economic status), and the Inspector General of the FBI (or whatever equivalent they have) about the FBI misbehavior/manipulation. The FBI is not the Statsi.

And quit obsessing over these people. You are obsessing because you are visiting their website to see what they said about you (just like adolescents). If they said anything harmful them take legal action.

Kirt

*people who have experienced kensho can make lots of mistakes and be malicious themselves. Kensho is just a glimpse. But a pattern of sustained error or maliciousness directed at a particular object can't happen after kensho. Kensho entails seeing the emptiness of mind at lest momentarily. So a person can stay enmeshed in their particular set of mind poisons but they cannot maintain sustain anger or hatred. And when they do something like sustained drinking, drugs, sexual involvement (I mean something in some sense inappropriate like sustained serial copulation just for the sex and worse) then they see through this quickly and tend to drop it (although it can happen again until all that stuff is purified).



Hey Kirt,

I hate to break it to you, because you seem attached to your idea of kensho, but I did have it. Not only did I have kensho, I had wu/satori.

It's difficult for people who haven't experienced This to imagine that others have and yet still behave in most ways like normal human beings, I understand that. Kensho doesn't turn you into a superman.

Also, if you suggest I feel anger or hatred toward anybody, you're wrong -- this is a mistake based on your own mis-"reading" of this or that remark of mine. In fact, I don't have any malice in me. (As Friedrich Nietzsche once pointed out, "High spirits can look like malice.") I'm incapable of scheming to hurt people, which is what a "pattern" of erroneous behavior is, I presume based on your quote. (Who said all this stuff, by the way, because it doesn't sound like anybody who actually had kensho! It's right on some counts, wrong on others, but it has no vitality in it)

I do Zen every day and can drop anything -- all thoughts, not to mention obsessions, and rest in the natural state. And guess what. There is nothing beyond the natural state. It is everything and nothing. There is no ultimate holiness, no transcendence, no eternally elevated condition of being.

These are just "my own" observations. I impose my satori on nobody.

Not only have I had kensho and satori, by the way, but I've helped a number of people to attain It also.

Andrew
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby justsit » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:14 pm

mujushinkyo wrote:I do Zen every day and can drop anything -- all thoughts, not to mention obsessions...

So why don't you ?

No, seriously. If you can drop this whole mess, why don't you just let go of it?
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:28 pm

justsit wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:I do Zen every day and can drop anything -- all thoughts, not to mention obsessions...

So why don't you ?

No, seriously. If you can drop this whole mess, why don't you just let go of it?


Personally speaking, I let go of it quite a long time ago.

But there are certain situations that karma or fate throws in one's lap that have to be dealt with in some way, an active and not evasive or passive way.

This cult isn't going to stop with me -- they're going to pursue and harm others. And they're all harming themselves.

So my letter to Gyatrul Rinpoche is my attempt to repay a karmic debt and to live up to my obligation, which in this case is to do everything I can (as a writer) to publicize the situation and get it resolved. One word from Gyatrul could resolve it all.

(My blog posts about it fall into the same category.)

If I've sometimes fallen into the trap of taking a bit too much pleasure in smart retorts and sometimes ridiculing them to excess, which I maybe have, then I am grateful to you for helping make me aware of it. I will do my best to tone that shit down in the future!

By the way, on the issue of what one might call "Zen Masters Behaving Badly, inspired by your comments I looked online for this text I dimly remembered reading. It's by Hakuin Zenji, who definitely had satori. One might easily be surprised by the harshness of his language he uses to criticize and even brutally attack and mock other Zen teachers (men he no doubt knew personally). Here's the quote, from a text translated as "The Importance of Kensho":

At present, we are infested in this country with a race of smooth-tongued, worldly-wise Zen teachers who feed their students a ration of utter nonsense. "Why do you suppose Buddha-patriarchs through the ages were so mortally afraid of words and letters?" they ask you. "It is," they answer, "because words and letters are a coast of rocky cliffs washed constantly by vast oceans of poison ready to swallow your wisdom and drown the life from it. Giving students stories and episodes from the Zen past and having them penetrate their meaning is a practice that did not start until after the Zen school had already branched out into the Five Houses, and they were developing into the Seven Schools. Koan study represents a provisional teaching aid which teachers have devised to bring students up to the threshold of the house of Zen so as to enable them to enter the dwelling itself. It has nothing directly to do with the profound meaning of the Buddha-patriarchs' inner chambers."

An incorrigible pack of skinheaded mules has ridden this teaching into a position of dominance in the world of Zen. You cannot distinguish master from disciple, jades from common stones. They gather and sit - rows of sleepy inanimate lumps. They hug themselves, self-satisfied, imagining they are the paragons of the Zen tradition. They belittle the Buddha- patriarchs of the past. While celestial phoenixes linger in the shadows, starving away, this hateful flock of owls and crows rule the roost, sleeping and stuffing their bellies to their hearts' content.

If you don't have the eye of kensho, it is impossible for you to use a single drop of the Buddha's wisdom. These men are heading straight for the realms of hell. That is why I say: if upon becoming a Buddhist monk you do not penetrate the Buddha's truth, you should turn in your black robe, give back all the donations you have received, and revert to being a layman.

Don't you realize that every syllable contained in the Buddhist canon - all five thousand and forty-eight scrolls of scripture - is a rocky cliff jutting into deadly, poison-filled seas? Don't you know that each of the twenty-eight Buddhas and six Buddhist saints is a body of virulent poison? It rises up in monstrous waves that blacken the skies, swallow the radiance of the sun and moon, and extinguishes the light of the stars and planets.

It is there as clear and stark as could be. It is staring you right in the face. But none of you is awake to see it. You are like owls that venture out into the light of day, their eyes wide open, yet they couldn't even see a mountain were it towering in front of them. The mountain doesn't have a grudge against owls that makes it want to hide. The fault is with the owls alone.

You might cover your ears with your hands. You might put a blindfold over your eyes. Try anything you can think of to avoid these poisonous fumes. But you can't escape the clouds sailing in the sky, the streams tumbling down the hillsides. You can't evade the falling autumn leaves scattering spring flowers.

You might wish to enlist the aid of the fleetest winged demon you can find. If you plied him with the best of food and drink and crossed his paw with gold, you might get him to take you on his back for a couple of circumnavigations of the earth. But you would still not find so much as a thimbleful of ground where you could hide.


Ha ha! Imagine what a cutting-and-pasting troll from another Buddhist school could do with this! "Hakuin says anybody who doesn't agree with his Zen is going straight to hell! He calls them skinheaded mules and a hateful flock of owls and crows! He threatens them by saying there's no place they can hide from him!" &c

I'm no Hakuin Zenji, but I really didn't say anything harsher to the cultists than this. Ikkyu had a lot of this bile in him too. Zen really seems to attract rough speakers.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby kirtu » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:08 pm

mujushinkyo wrote: I hate to break it to you, because you seem attached to your idea of kensho,


nope, not an idea of kensho.

I had wu/satori.


From your speech and topics of concern, you are deeply mistaken. And are behaving in a mistaken way.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Nemo » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:57 pm

Let's see what we have learned about KPC's and Akhon Lhamo's actions;

    KPC bear baited Cassidy, Nydia Alexander and Andrew into making angry and threatening tweets. They acted shamefully and have never apologized to anyone for their actions. Not even the man who was raided by accident. Cassidy probably took the heat for Nydia's anger at wasting years of her life on this group.

    They actually cyberstalked numerous people. If the threats of using black Tantric rituals against their perceived opponents can be verified they will no longer even be Buddhist in my mind.

    They then hired a very expensive boutique Washington law firm to concoct a case for them. Since they had technically done nothing wrong new charges were invented just to put Cassidy in prison. I am wondering how much this cost. Donations earmarked for the ordained and stupas?

    This for a Sangha already burdened with a Lama who since 1992 demands 100,000$ a year tax free over and above lodging, health care and food. Trips and vacations are also on the temple.

    Her ordained Sangha cannot practice because they all need jobs to support her and themselves.

What else is there to know?

Kirtu your blaming of the victim is a bit creepy.
"You shouldn't have dressed like such a slut."
Obviously Andrew doesn't deserve what happened to him. It is our responsibility now. Generally once a group have gone this far they need more and more drama to survive till they self destruct. In a year or so when someone is dead remember I told you cults always get worse.
Last edited by Tara on Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed typo as requested.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Karma Dorje » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:14 pm

Nemo wrote:Let's see what we have learned about KPC's and Akhon Lhamo's actions;

    KPC bear baited Cassidy, Nydia Alexander and Andrew into making angry and threatening tweets. They acted shamefully and have never apologized to anyone for their actions. Not even the man who was raided by accident. Cassidy probably took the heat for Nydia's anger at wasting years of her life on this group.

    They actually cyberstalked numerous people. If the threats of using black Tantric rituals against their perceived opponents can be verified they will no longer even be Buddhist in my mind.

    They then hired a very expensive boutique Washington law firm to concoct a case for them. Since they had technically done nothing wrong new charges were invented just to put Cassidy in prison. I am wondering how much this cost. Donations earmarked for the ordained and stupas?

    This for a Sangha already burdened with a Lama who since 1992 demands 1000,000$ a year tax free over and above lodging, health care and food. Trips and vacations are also on the temple.

    Her ordained Sangha cannot practice because they all need jobs to support her and themselves.

What else is there to know?

Kirtu your blaming of the victim is a bit creepy.
"You shouldn't have dressed like such a slut."
Obviously Andrew doesn't deserve what happened to him. It is our responsibility now. Generally once a group have gone this far they need more and more drama to survive till they self destruct. In a year or so when someone is dead remember I told you cults always get worse.


:good:

The portly tulkus behaviour was and still is vicious and reprehensible. Her followers are mostly well-meaning but completely under her thrall and do things that don't even pass for common decency, let alone dharma behaviour. I just hope that it serves as a perfect example of how not to transplant the dharma to American soil.

Tibetan dharma organizations need to learn a thing or two about accountability if they expect to succeed here.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:17 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:Tibetan dharma organizations need to learn a thing or two about accountability if they expect to succeed here.


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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Nemo » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:12 am

Can someone fix my typo?* She only demands 100,000$ a year. Not a million. Which in the 90's was more than half of the total operating budget.

*Edit - typo fixed.
Last edited by Tara on Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: To inform poster typo in previous post has been fixed.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Jinzang » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:29 am

Even when someone who is your equal or inferior
Driven by spite seeks to defame you,
To place him on the crown of your head
With the same respect you would accord your guru
Is the practice of a Bodhisattva.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby justsit » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:44 am

Jinzang wrote:Even when someone who is your equal or inferior
Driven by spite seeks to defame you,
To place him on the crown of your head
With the same respect you would accord your guru
Is the practice of a Bodhisattva.

Exactly.

And

The Eight Lojong Verses of Geshe Langri Tangpa (Dorje Senge)

With the thought of attaining enlightenment for the welfare of beings, who are more precious than a wish-fulfilling jewel, I will constantly practice holding them dear.

Whenever I am with others, I will practice seeing myself as the lowest of all and from the very depth of my heart, I will respectfully hold others as supreme.

In all actions, I will examine my mind and the moment a disturbing attitude arises, endangering myself and others, I will firmly confront and avert it
.
Whenever I meet a person of bad nature who is overwhelmed by negative energy and intense suffering, I will hold such a rare one dear, as if I had found a precious treasure.

When others, out of jealousy, mistreat me with abuse, slander and so on, I will practice accepting defeat and offering the victory to them.

When someone I have benefited and in whom I have placed great trust hurts me very badly, I will practice seeing that person as my supreme teacher.

In short, I will offer directly and indirectly every benefit and happiness to all beings, my mothers. I will practice in secret taking upon myself all their harmful actions and sufferings.

Without these practices being defiled by the stains of the eight worldly concerns, by perceiving all phenomena as illusory, I will practice without grasping to release all beings from the bondage of the disturbing, unsubdued mind and karma.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Nemo » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:14 am

Isn't it a bit ironic posting that?

So what you are saying is ignore the problem, blame ourselves and it will go away?
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:49 am

Nemo wrote:Isn't it a bit ironic posting that?

So what you are saying is ignore the problem, blame ourselves and it will go away?


Hence the Tibetan Instutional Response (TIR). Lojong teachings are often used as Mind Control. Milarepa had good reason to call Dromton a demon.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby justsit » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:55 am

Nemo wrote:Isn't it a bit ironic posting that?

So what you are saying is ignore the problem, blame ourselves and it will go away?


Not exactly. If Andrew had turned off Twitter, stayed off KPC related sites, and refused to play at the onset, this would likely not have escalated to the level of stupidity that it has. So yes, now he shares the blame. They threw the hook, he bit. He admitted as much.

The lojong slogans are useful as tools that show how to transform poison into medicine. Just my opinion. If they don't work for you, don't use them.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:39 am

So, my skirt was too short and that's why I got raped.

Is that it?

And while I was being raped, I should have practiced envisioning my rapist as Amitabh. That would obviously have transformed the whole situation into a Lotus Field of Divine Bliss. Right?

My response: Some of you little Buddhist scamps here are worse than the worst Catholics. You're crazed -- totally sunk in an anti-life religious ascetic delusion.

I don't mind if anybody "denies" "my" realization. Realization is everywhere. We're like fish arguing about water, birds quarreling over air. I seem to realize it, and "others" -- for whatever insane reason -- don't.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:41 am

mujushinkyo wrote:My response: Some of you little Buddhist scamps here are worse than the worst Catholics. You're crazed -- totally sunk in an anti-life religious ascetic delusion.


Well that is a bit of an exaggeration, but yes -- Buddhism is a pretty alienating religion.
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby mujushinkyo » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:42 am

kirtu wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote: I hate to break it to you, because you seem attached to your idea of kensho,


nope, not an idea of kensho.

I had wu/satori.


From your speech and topics of concern, you are deeply mistaken. And are behaving in a mistaken way.

Kirt


Kirt, Let me ask. Have you had Kensho?

Or Satori?

"Nope."

It's all just a religious, idealistic concept to you, isn't it?

Are you not behaving in mistaken way, by telling any other person they are behaving in a mistaken way?

Look into it clearly. You're missing something here, and it could be important for you to find out what it is.

Andrew
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Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:44 am

mujushinkyo wrote:
kirtu wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote: I hate to break it to you, because you seem attached to your idea of kensho,


nope, not an idea of kensho.

I had wu/satori.


From your speech and topics of concern, you are deeply mistaken. And are behaving in a mistaken way.

Kirt


Kirt, Let me ask. Have you had Kensho?

Or Satori?

"Nope."

It's all just a religious, idealistic concept to you, isn't it?

Are you not behaving in mistaken way, by telling any other person they are behaving in a mistaken way?

Look into it clearly. You're missing something here, and it could be important for you to find out what it is.

Andrew


Here, I should say, this is unproductive.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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