Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
nathan
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Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby nathan » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:04 pm

There is a new article by Ven. Gunaratana about Jhana and Vipassana. "Should We Come Out of Jhana to Practice Vipassana?"

It seems the Venerable has a new way of looking at jhana, which he now writes is entirely compatible with vipassana. As he seems to be entirely at odds in this article with what he has previously written about Jhana in two longer works on the same subject I thought it probably made the most sense to post a note about it here where people can quote passages from all three documents. May the noblest Bhante G. win.

The Venerables two previous works, also available as pdfs online, are:

The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation

A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation


The new article:

http://www.bhavanasociety.org/resource/ ... vipassana/
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

PeterB
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby PeterB » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:30 pm

"May the noblest Bhante G win "... :smile:
I havent yet read the article but thanks for the smile..

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Ben
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Ben » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:18 pm

Thank you Nathan.
I look forward to reading Bhante's article (and previous works) with great interest!
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Kenshou
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Kenshou » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:35 pm


husmonk
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby husmonk » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:57 pm

One point I noticed is the following. In the older document, he recites the "common" way of practicing insight after getting out of a jhana (as a person like Ajahn Brahm would say). In the new one, he is emphatic about practicing insight "within" (i.e., not getting out of) a jhana. I would like to know more about the coexistence of deep concentration and mindfulness (more than Shankman, Brahm, Gunaratana, and Thanissaro have written). Any pointers? Thank you.

Moggalana
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Moggalana » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:53 am

Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.

rowyourboat
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:49 pm

I dont see a contradication - only a development in Bhanthe's meditative abilities: It is easier to come out of jhana and practice vipassana. Now he seems to be able to practice it within jhana as well; and he is keen to share it with the world - we don't need to attack that do we?

with metta

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Sanghamitta
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sanghamitta » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:17 pm

The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

husmonk
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby husmonk » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:38 am


Sylvester
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:22 am


Nyana
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:51 am


Sylvester
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:36 am

Thanks Geoff.

Could you share your thoughts pls as to why the particular verb tenses used in MN 111 necessitate contemporaneity of the 2 verbs?

I would suggest that the Abhidhammic notion of insight within Jhana is an outcome of its resort to the lokuttara jhana concept.

The Petakopadesa treatment of vitakka and vicara does not tally with how MN 117 treats the synonyms for vitakka-vicara.

With metta

Nyana
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:12 pm


Sylvester
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:32 pm

Thank you Geoff.

Could you perhaps furnish the Dhammasangani passage which mentions vipassana within lokiya jhana?

Pls elaborate on the Petakopadesa and why you believe it is consistent with MN 117.

Let me mull over Ven Thanissaro's argument. I need to see if I still have a copy of Ven Dhammanando's critique of Ven Thanissaro's "gnosis penetration" from e-Sangha.

Nyana
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:54 pm


nathan
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby nathan » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:26 am

Thank you to everyone for the scholarly notes, additional related links and informed comments.

:anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

Sylvester
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:46 pm

Hi Geoff

Thanks for the notes.

Could you indulge me and explain why the peyyala instruction in the Catukkanaya discussion of rupavacarakusala dhamma must contain the vipassana definition found in para 55? Para 55 is found in the kamavacarakusala's Padabhajani laundry list of dhammas. Are we supposed to pluck out everything in paras 2 onwards pertaining to the kamavaracarakusala arupi dhammas and export them wholesale to the rupavacarakusala lists? The same peyyala instruction is also given in the arupavacarakusala dhammas and it should be very clear that stuff such as piti, sukha, vitakka, vicara etc etc from the kamavacarakusala list has no place in the rupa (at least beyond the 1st and 2nd Jhanas for the examples cited) list, much less the arupa list. So, how does the Dhammasangani instruct us as to which of the kamavacarakusala dhammas is pertinent to and to be repeated in the rupavacakusala and arupavacarakusala lists?

I think I see where the problem is with our discussion of the Petakopadesa. You've offered an English translation of that text, where vitakka and vicara are rendered "directed thought" and "evaluation" respectively, with the corresponding denominative verb being rendered "thinks". I'm not accusing you of sleight of hand, but don't you think that reliance on this particular English translation is simply begging the question in the issue "What does vitakka-vicara mean?"

Since you've mentioned that MN 117 looks "Abhidhammic", what do you think about Mrs Rhys Davids's suspicions about the status of MN 111 as not originating from the Buddha's time? Unlike MN 117 which has at least a parallel, MN 111 is completely unique in the corpus of Early Buddhism. Nevertheless, for the sake of discussion, I'll treat MN 111 as canonical.

Pls give me some time to gather my thoughts coherently on the "arising from the attainment" issue in MN 111. While I share part of your belief about the role of sanna in the preceding 7 attainments, I do not take the view that there is a necessary temporal conjunction between the sanna refrain and the vipassana refrain.

Nyana
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:12 pm


Sylvester
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:45 am


Nyana
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:52 am



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