Dzogchen and the Two Stages

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Pero » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:05 am

heart wrote:With respect, this is a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss a subject, like what ChNNR said yesterday, there is no point in mentioning it at all. If you want to discuss it, for whatever reason, just spit it out. Once you have done that you have to accept that people might disagree with it your understanding of what ChNNR is saying. This does not mean any disrespect to your Guru.

I give you an example;

"Aside from receiving blessings, gathering the accumulations, and purifying obscurations, no other technique exists for recognizing rigpa." Tulku Urgyen

If you feel shocked and disagree with this statement because your Guru says otherwise are you then disrespectful to Tulku Urgyen? Everyone one here are stuck in the presets of their own Guru as well as the those that the various experiences of their life have given them. Also most people here on the Dzogchen subforum have heard ChNNR teach, we know what he says, but not everyone experience his teachings and statements in the same way. It is just like the Dharma example how different sentient beings experience water. Despite this we try to have a respectful discussion on the subject of Dzogchen here. That means that we try to respect everyone's Gurus and not only our own. Dzogchen can be taught in many different ways and as far as I can see they are all good. I think it might be a good idea to add to the TOS that the argument "you disrespect my teacher" should not be allowed because if everyone used that argument no discussions would be possible at all here. Also unless a Guru him or herself post something on this forum we are never ever directly discussing their teaching but only our own subjective understanding of their teaching. I think it is important to do this distinction to avoid unnecessary turmoil.

:twothumbsup:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby rai » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:15 am

:good:
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Mariusz » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:13 pm

Pero wrote:
heart wrote:With respect, this is a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss a subject, like what ChNNR said yesterday, there is no point in mentioning it at all. If you want to discuss it, for whatever reason, just spit it out. Once you have done that you have to accept that people might disagree with it your understanding of what ChNNR is saying. This does not mean any disrespect to your Guru.

I give you an example;

"Aside from receiving blessings, gathering the accumulations, and purifying obscurations, no other technique exists for recognizing rigpa." Tulku Urgyen

If you feel shocked and disagree with this statement because your Guru says otherwise are you then disrespectful to Tulku Urgyen? Everyone one here are stuck in the presets of their own Guru as well as the those that the various experiences of their life have given them. Also most people here on the Dzogchen subforum have heard ChNNR teach, we know what he says, but not everyone experience his teachings and statements in the same way. It is just like the Dharma example how different sentient beings experience water. Despite this we try to have a respectful discussion on the subject of Dzogchen here. That means that we try to respect everyone's Gurus and not only our own. Dzogchen can be taught in many different ways and as far as I can see they are all good. I think it might be a good idea to add to the TOS that the argument "you disrespect my teacher" should not be allowed because if everyone used that argument no discussions would be possible at all here. Also unless a Guru him or herself post something on this forum we are never ever directly discussing their teaching but only our own subjective understanding of their teaching. I think it is important to do this distinction to avoid unnecessary turmoil.

:twothumbsup:
In my humble POV, the best is to do what one's own master of Dzogchen point-out, not necessary Namkhai Norbu, and what was calrified by personal questions with that master or advanced vajrasiblings and one's own experience. For example after 10% of Ngondro (about 1,5 year of easy practice) one concentrated on Khorde Rushen. Guru Yoga of Ngondro is connected and Vajrasattva is still important. And one can add tsalung/tummo which can be very enjoyable and good for health, when properly done without any hurry or pressure.... Please carry on :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:07 pm

Pero wrote:
heart wrote:With respect, this is a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss a subject, like what ChNNR said yesterday, there is no point in mentioning it at all. If you want to discuss it, for whatever reason, just spit it out. Once you have done that you have to accept that people might disagree with it your understanding of what ChNNR is saying. This does not mean any disrespect to your Guru.

I give you an example;

"Aside from receiving blessings, gathering the accumulations, and purifying obscurations, no other technique exists for recognizing rigpa." Tulku Urgyen

If you feel shocked and disagree with this statement because your Guru says otherwise are you then disrespectful to Tulku Urgyen? Everyone one here are stuck in the presets of their own Guru as well as the those that the various experiences of their life have given them. Also most people here on the Dzogchen subforum have heard ChNNR teach, we know what he says, but not everyone experience his teachings and statements in the same way. It is just like the Dharma example how different sentient beings experience water. Despite this we try to have a respectful discussion on the subject of Dzogchen here. That means that we try to respect everyone's Gurus and not only our own. Dzogchen can be taught in many different ways and as far as I can see they are all good. I think it might be a good idea to add to the TOS that the argument "you disrespect my teacher" should not be allowed because if everyone used that argument no discussions would be possible at all here. Also unless a Guru him or herself post something on this forum we are never ever directly discussing their teaching but only our own subjective understanding of their teaching. I think it is important to do this distinction to avoid unnecessary turmoil.

:twothumbsup:



Tashi delek,

Finally can Nature not be discussed with the " Brains" , there is no dualism inside Nature.

But we try to explain how to get to the Natural State or abiding in it.
Every Dzogchen Master has so his own approach to reach that State. Could be that this Master is following his Lineage to the letter or like in case of ChNN Rinpoche, a more modern or "wider" understanding to reach that Awareness or in his case he uses the term Knowledge for this kind of Rigpa.

Well then we have to replace the word and we get the same result. For me there can be no difference in the Awareness but one should bear in mind that here is also spoken of personal experience which cannot be shared, because another one does not "see" the same visions.

There are 2 difficulties seen by me that can cause turmoil,

The personal visions / experience and the Master' s explanations about how ro reach those experiences
by (preliminaries) + Longde, Semsde and Mengagde; Only Mengagde.

Further are there a lot of Dzogchen cycle of teachings and also here are there those minor differences, like i did understood in the 3 to 4 Bon Dzogchen cycle of Teachings. Because of these minor differences we call them different Dzogchen Cycles.

If i add ChNN and Nyingma Dzogchen Cycle of Teachings, then we have 6 Lineages or Dzogchen Cycle of Teachings, they bring forth the result / fruit, the Rainbow Bodies. Many Dzogchen Cycles are also interrelated because some Dzogchen Masters did teached in different Lineages like Drenpa Namkha and others.
.
The general Dzogchen vision or the core of the Dzogchen visions can be better discussed like visions are of empty Nature that is everywhere accepted.
Or the self emanating Wisdom aspects, Bodhicitta in Dzogchen etc.

We should better dwell in the exchange about the core of General Dzochen visions / teachings, which are part of all Dzogchen Teachings.What is left over are automaticly those minor differences, which can cause that so called turmoil which is very unneeded.


Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:25 pm

Mariusz wrote:In my humble POV, the best is to do what one's own master of Dzogchen point-out, not necessary Namkhai Norbu...


Of course, and no one said otherwise.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:19 pm

Magnus,

I have no disrespect for TUR at all. Quite the contrary. I received introduction from him twice. Once it worked, once it did not. It's always been interesting to me that the time it worked I was with a Kagyu group (I originally took refuge with a Kagyu lama) and the time nothing happened I was with a Nyngma group. I think TUR was a great a lama. I am a little surprised by your response to my post but that's okay. I have settled in CHNNR but I have received dzogchen teachings from many lamas. My apologies if I sounded so sectarian. It's always good to get feedback. Thanks.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:28 pm

MalaBeads wrote:Magnus,

I have no disrespect for TUR at all. Quite the contrary. I received introduction from him twice. Once it worked, once it did not. It's always been interesting to me that the time it worked I was with a Kagyu group (I originally took refuge with a Kagyu lama) and the time nothing happened I was with a Nyngma group. I think TUR was a great a lama. I am a little surprised by your response to my post but that's okay. I have settled in CHNNR but I have received dzogchen teachings from many lamas. My apologies if I sounded so sectarian. It's always good to get feedback. Thanks.


I didn't direct most of this post to you, only the first part. I am glad to hear that you received teachings from many Lama's because then perhaps you know what I am talking about.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:52 pm

Something else occurs to me to add here.

If before posting, I had looked a little deeper into my own experience, I might have said something like CHNNR continues to move me out of my own preset ideas. I was looking outwards instead of inwards. The practice of other people is really none of my business. I am a practitioner, not a teacher.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby In the bone yard » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:01 pm

conebeckham wrote:Someone's already stopped pussyfooting around and said the two stages are necessary, if I'm not mistaken.

But that person is wrong, and not merely because CNNR said so.


Well, necessary is a poor choice of words.
...how's the 2 stages are present or existing "on the path."
This is where the absolute and relative truths are found.

I used "necessary" to reply with his words, but it brought confusion to others instead!
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:44 pm

In the bone yard wrote:This is where the absolute and relative truths are found.


Which have nothing to do with Dzogchen.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:31 am

MalaBeads wrote:Something else occurs to me to add here.

If before posting, I had looked a little deeper into my own experience, I might have said something like CHNNR continues to move me out of my own preset ideas. I was looking outwards instead of inwards. The practice of other people is really none of my business. I am a practitioner, not a teacher.


That is a good point actually. We are all practitioners here and our experience is subjective and direct inwards.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:36 pm

heart wrote:
"Aside from receiving blessings, gathering the accumulations, and purifying obscurations, no other technique exists for recognizing rigpa." Tulku Urgyen



Our friend pensum wrote the following in a mail to me, I publish it here with his permission I hope everyone read it.

pensum wrote:Of course, there is the common understanding of what "receiving blessings, gathering the accumulations, and purifying obscurations" means and entails, namely refuge, preliminary practices, yidam sadhanas, feast offerings, confessions etc. But concealed beneath that layer is another not so readily apparent meaning.

First, we must remember that Tulku Urgyen defined blessings as "receiving from a qualified master the instructions on how to achieve complete enlightenment in this very lifetime." Note that here he explicitly confirms what i said above "a qualified master. " So in regard to entering the path of Dzogchen, "receiving blessings" is simply to recognize one's buddha nature in actuality; "purifying obscurations" is to resolve any doubts one might have; and "gathering the accumulations" is to gain confidence in rigpa.

Once one has been introduced, clarified what buddha nature is in actuality and gained confidence in its benefits, then another glance at that simple line reveals another deeper layer of meaning, this time from the perspective of path Dzogchen. From this perspective "receiving blessings" is recognizing, for each time one recognizes then rigpa itself is the blessing. I personally refer to this as "natural grace" for one is already inherently endowed with this blessing, and it is merely a question of accepting and acknowledging it, while bathing in its radiant slendour. Next, "gathering the accumulations" is simply to recognize again and again, gaining more and more stability. And lastly of course "purifying obscurations" occurs naturally and effortlessly as all thoughts, phenomena etc. are self-liberated and naturally dissolve in the space of rigpa (vidyadhatu). All the habits developed since beginningless time loosen and simply fall away. The more stable one becomes, the longer the periods of rigpa and hence the less time one spends in the only true obscuration: marigpa.

Another way to look at it might be that "gathering the accumulations" is doing sessions, as one then settles into the natural state without distraction, while "purifying obscurations" is the time between sessions while going about one's daily life and one brings thoughts, emotions etc. onto the path.

Oh, and i forgot to add that from the view of the fruition, which is also the ground, "accumulating merit" corresponds to original purity (ka dag) or trekcho, "purifying obscurations" to natural presence (lhundrub) or togal, and "receiving blessings" to their unity, the unbounded manifestation of compassion. On the surface, it is such an apparently simple statement, yet when investigated it is found to encompass the entire ground, path and fruition from the most basic outer practices to the profound depths and meaning of dzogchen--truly exquisite!


/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby In the bone yard » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
In the bone yard wrote:This is where the absolute and relative truths are found.


Which have nothing to do with Dzogchen.



:smile: Oh really?
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:38 pm

In the bone yard wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
In the bone yard wrote:This is where the absolute and relative truths are found.


Which have nothing to do with Dzogchen.



:smile: Oh really?



Really.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby In the bone yard » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:07 am

Okay, does that conflict with something you read?

Malcom,

There are many practices and levels of depth the Buddha taught.
However, they do not conflict with each other. We can't compare the teachings.

There are contradiction when we compare teachings and lineages because of depth.
That is why the buddha said to contemplate a teaching and discard teachings one does not understand.
The higher teachings are not meant to be understood intellectually, they must be experienced.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:23 am

In the bone yard wrote:Okay, does that conflict with something you read?

Malcom,

There are many practices and levels of depth the Buddha taught.
However, they do not conflict with each other. We can't compare the teachings.

There are contradiction when we compare teachings and lineages because of depth.
That is why the buddha said to contemplate a teaching and discard teachings one does not understand.
The higher teachings are not meant to be understood intellectually, they must be experienced.


It is not a question of higher and lower.

But the fact remains is that the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen and are irrelevant in Dzogchen.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Sönam » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:28 am

This is why when one wanted to enrol Dzogchen in Buddhist tenets, contortions are necessary ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
In the bone yard wrote:Okay, does that conflict with something you read?

Malcom,

There are many practices and levels of depth the Buddha taught.
However, they do not conflict with each other. We can't compare the teachings.

There are contradiction when we compare teachings and lineages because of depth.
That is why the buddha said to contemplate a teaching and discard teachings one does not understand.
The higher teachings are not meant to be understood intellectually, they must be experienced.


It is not a question of higher and lower.

But the fact remains is that the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen and are irrelevant in Dzogchen.


The obvious question is then why ChNNR would teach on the two stages if it is irrelevant in Dzogchen? Not a long time ago you said that it is possible to integrate any religion or belief with the practice of Dzogchen, if I understood you correctly. The two stages and the two truths should then be easy to integrate with Dzogchen, right?
Then you told me yourself that the twos stages are mentioned as practices in the 17 Tantras. The Kunjed Gyalpo is full of references to the two stages even if it is as a way to define the difference between Mahayoga/Anuyoga and Dzogchen I don't think that the word "irrelevant" is at all appropriate.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:44 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
In the bone yard wrote:Okay, does that conflict with something you read?

Malcom,

There are many practices and levels of depth the Buddha taught.
However, they do not conflict with each other. We can't compare the teachings.

There are contradiction when we compare teachings and lineages because of depth.
That is why the buddha said to contemplate a teaching and discard teachings one does not understand.
The higher teachings are not meant to be understood intellectually, they must be experienced.


It is not a question of higher and lower.

But the fact remains is that the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen and are irrelevant in Dzogchen.


The obvious question is then why ChNNR would teach on the two stages if it is irrelevant in Dzogchen? Not a long time ago you said that it is possible to integrate any religion or belief with the practice of Dzogchen, if I understood you correctly. The two stages and the two truths should then be easy to integrate with Dzogchen, right?
Then you told me yourself that the twos stages are mentioned as practices in the 17 Tantras. The Kunjed Gyalpo is full of references to the two stages even if it is as a way to define the difference between Mahayoga/Anuyoga and Dzogchen I don't think that the word "irrelevant" is at all appropriate.

/magnus


Jesus, do we really have to go round and round on this one again? You know what I mean when I say "The two stages are irrelevant to Dzogchen".

M
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby daelm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:But the fact remains is that the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen and are irrelevant in Dzogchen.


The obvious question is then why ChNNR would teach on the two stages if it is irrelevant in Dzogchen? Not a long time ago you said that it is possible to integrate any religion or belief with the practice of Dzogchen, if I understood you correctly. The two stages and the two truths should then be easy to integrate with Dzogchen, right?

/magnus


Jesus, do we really have to go round and round on this one again? You know what I mean when I say "The two stages are irrelevant to Dzogchen".

M



my gloss: "irrelevant to Dzogchen" = "(knowledge or experience of them) is not a requirement to successfully practise Dzogchen".

magnus, in the same way that other practices are not a requirement, but can be integrated, so too the two stages are not a requirement but can be integrated. as for your other question, i would guess - with a pretty high expectation of being right - that CNNR teaches them because he thinks they're valuable. he also instructs people in translation, because he thinks that's valuable, and it too is not a requirement for a successful Dzogchen practise. same principle.

i'm sure you are aware of that.


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