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Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness? - Dhamma Wheel

Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Wizard in the Forest
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Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:25 pm

When a person is unaware that they're performing a harmful action does it generate more harm than when a person is aware they're performing a harmful action, but do it anyway?

I remember a discussion with Nagasena and King Milinda, and Nagasena said that a person who is unaware that they're doing wrong produce more harm because it's like someone who grabs a hot iron. The person who does not know it's hot will hold on to it longer, and the one who knows it is hot will let go of it faster. Is there other cross-referenced support for this in the Nikayas?
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:27 am

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby Anicca » Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:48 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:25 am

Thanks for the quote Anicca.

The understanding I've gleaned from various sources to make some sense of this is that if one does bad kamma knowing that it is bad then it is less likely to leave such a strong habitual tendency in the mind and so the behaviour is less likely to become habitual. One is very careful to let go of the hot ball quickly!

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby alan » Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:24 am

Hmm...I haven't read the Milindapanha, perhaps for good reason.
This Sutta does not conform with others--something seems wrong here.

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby phil » Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:32 am

Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby alan » Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:52 am

I've read boring suttas, and I've read suttas that are repetitious. But so far I have not encountered a sutta that did not make basic sense--until this one.
What is this Milindapanha? I'm not convinced it is to be trusted as the Buddha's word.

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby Kim OHara » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:24 am


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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:35 am

Milindapañha of the Khuddaka Nikaya. Unless you dismiss the Nikayas... It's Canonical.
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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby alan » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:39 am

I dismiss it.

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby alan » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:52 am

They make no sense.
The arguments presented in this sutta are at odds with basic teachings. Until someone shows me otherwise I will assume these writings are later additions, writings that do not deserve attention.

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:53 am

Do you dismiss it because you understand it or dismiss it because you have personal aversion to the idea?
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby alan » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:59 am

Dismissed because the idea is not consistent with the recognized view of kamma.

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:30 am


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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby alan » Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:41 am

Kamma always goes to intention. We see that many times in the suttas.

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:47 am


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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby cooran » Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:51 am

Hello alan, all,

This article on Criteria for Judging the Unwholesomeness of Actions in the Texts of Theravaada Buddhism by Peter Harvey University of Sunderland
may make sense to you - particularly section v).


http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... the%20.htm

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby alan » Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:56 am

Yes, that is called ignorance. It's generally considered to be bad.

edit--thanks Chris. Mike and I posted at the same time.
I'll read your link and go to bed.

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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:19 am

See the Majjhimanikāya Sutta 5

Here, friend, Moggallāna, this person with blemish, who does not know, as it really is, there is blemish in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled mind with greed, hate, and delusion. Just like a bronze bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered with dust and stains, its owner not partaking food in it would not clean it, would let it lie with dust and as time goes that bronze bowl would be much more dusty and stained. In the same way this person with blemish, who would not know, as it really is, there is blemish in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled mind with greed, hate, and delusion.

Friend, this person with blemish, who knows, as it really is, there is blemish in me, would arouse interest, and make effort to dispel that blemish. He would die with a non-defiled mind without greed, hate, and delusion. Just like a bronze bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered with dust and stains. Its owner partaking food in it would clean it. Would not let it lie with dirt and as time goes the bronze bowl would be more and more clean. In the same manner this person with blemish, who knows, as it really is, there is blemish in me, would arouse interest and make effort to dispel that blemish. So he would die with a non-defiled mind without greed, hate, and delusion.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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cooran
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Re: Which leads to more harm unawareness or vindictiveness?

Postby cooran » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:23 am

Thank you Bhante Pesala. :bow:

with metta and respect,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---


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