restricted texts question
restricted texts question
Greetings,
I have recently enjoyed reading Thrangu's Rinpoche's outstanding commentaries on Pointing Out the Dharmakaya and An Ocean of the Ultimate Meaning: Teachings on Mahamudra (along with some of his other works). I was hoping to obtain the 9th Karmapa's texts and read them side by side with the commentaries but have discovered that they are restricted. What would be required to gain access to the texts?
I have recently enjoyed reading Thrangu's Rinpoche's outstanding commentaries on Pointing Out the Dharmakaya and An Ocean of the Ultimate Meaning: Teachings on Mahamudra (along with some of his other works). I was hoping to obtain the 9th Karmapa's texts and read them side by side with the commentaries but have discovered that they are restricted. What would be required to gain access to the texts?
Re: restricted texts question
Usually it requires some type of approval from the guru, or completion of ngondro or a particular retreat or course, it varies by teacher.
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5715
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: restricted texts question
If you read Tibetan, they can be had from TBRC for free, if you register.
If you do not read Tibetan, and want to read the English translation of Chagchen Ngedon Gyamtso--the biggest of the three texts--which, I believe, is published and sold by Dzokchen Ponlop Rinpoche's organization--you would need permission from a lineage teacher. Khenpo Tsutrim Gyamtso "toured" shortly after the publication of the English translation, and gave the Pointing Out Instructions which are included, and indicated that these instructions were necessary in order to purchase the book. There may be different requirements now--did you check the interwebz?
In any case, it's best to get transmission from a teacher, and very best to work with this text one-on-one, or in formal teaching situations, for most people.
If you do not read Tibetan, and want to read the English translation of Chagchen Ngedon Gyamtso--the biggest of the three texts--which, I believe, is published and sold by Dzokchen Ponlop Rinpoche's organization--you would need permission from a lineage teacher. Khenpo Tsutrim Gyamtso "toured" shortly after the publication of the English translation, and gave the Pointing Out Instructions which are included, and indicated that these instructions were necessary in order to purchase the book. There may be different requirements now--did you check the interwebz?
In any case, it's best to get transmission from a teacher, and very best to work with this text one-on-one, or in formal teaching situations, for most people.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5715
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: restricted texts question
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
-
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:12 am
Re: restricted texts question
If you study Thrangu Rinpoche's three books of commentary on the text in question, you'll have gotten the gist of the material. The alternative, as Cone suggests, would be for you to acquire a reading knowledge of Tibetan.
Chris
Chris
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
Re: restricted texts question
Thank you all for the feedback. Learning Tibetan is not an option--at least for the foreseeable future.
I'd love to talk with a Mahamudra master about practice, but so far I haven't been able to identify anyone I'm attracted to other than Thrangu Rinpoche. Unfortunately, he is not in good health these days. Admittedly I only have a limited knowledge of who is highly regarded in Mahamudra circles. So, any pointers to meditation masters would be greatly appreciated. Someone accessible here in the US would be nice.
Ideally, I'd like to find a teacher who would start with the pointing out instructions and will work with students at the level of Essence Mahamudra and straight shamatha/vipashyana training. It would be great to work with a master on one of the key meditation texts after pointing out instructions.
I'd love to talk with a Mahamudra master about practice, but so far I haven't been able to identify anyone I'm attracted to other than Thrangu Rinpoche. Unfortunately, he is not in good health these days. Admittedly I only have a limited knowledge of who is highly regarded in Mahamudra circles. So, any pointers to meditation masters would be greatly appreciated. Someone accessible here in the US would be nice.
Ideally, I'd like to find a teacher who would start with the pointing out instructions and will work with students at the level of Essence Mahamudra and straight shamatha/vipashyana training. It would be great to work with a master on one of the key meditation texts after pointing out instructions.
-
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:12 am
Re: restricted texts question
Check your PM's.
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
Re: restricted texts question
There's something about these restricted texts that I've never understood. Not all restricted texts as I can see why a tradition might want to reserve certain teachings. Rather, it's that the restrictions aren't always applied equally. In this case, if you're Tibetan or a westerner who can read Tibetan, then the text is freely available. Otherwise you need special permission. I've come across this before but it's never made sense to me.
Am I overlooking an important point here?
Am I overlooking an important point here?
Re: restricted texts question
The restriction of a particular text depends on the teacher and how the blessings are passed on. With Sutra Mahamudra everything is pretty much open. With Essence Mahamudra things are much more closed because there are aspects that if known will harm the pointing out - I guess.
I studied and practiced Sutra Mahamudra and also received accidental pointing out instructions just by asking a question. So it's not always clear cut. If I'm being honest whilst I see Mahamudra and Dzogchen to be equal in terms the level of realization I think these days a student would be wiser to follow the more open approach of Dzogchen. My view of this is recently formed so don't take my word for it.
I studied and practiced Sutra Mahamudra and also received accidental pointing out instructions just by asking a question. So it's not always clear cut. If I'm being honest whilst I see Mahamudra and Dzogchen to be equal in terms the level of realization I think these days a student would be wiser to follow the more open approach of Dzogchen. My view of this is recently formed so don't take my word for it.
The Blessed One said:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Re: restricted texts question
About this particular text it is that it contain a kind of a teachers guidance commentary: Ask the student this, if answer that then ask him to do this, if answer like that ask him to do that. So it could destroy the experience of receiving these kind of pointing-out for someone that haven't got it. Which would be a shame.Finney wrote:There's something about these restricted texts that I've never understood. Not all restricted texts as I can see why a tradition might want to reserve certain teachings. Rather, it's that the restrictions aren't always applied equally. In this case, if you're Tibetan or a westerner who can read Tibetan, then the text is freely available. Otherwise you need special permission. I've come across this before but it's never made sense to me.
Am I overlooking an important point here?
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: restricted texts question
Dzogchen isn't so much more open, it is just ChNNR and maybe a few others. There are a lot of restricted texts and commentaries, some incredibly guarded.Andrew108 wrote:The restriction of a particular text depends on the teacher and how the blessings are passed on. With Sutra Mahamudra everything is pretty much open. With Essence Mahamudra things are much more closed because there are aspects that if known will harm the pointing out - I guess.
I studied and practiced Sutra Mahamudra and also received accidental pointing out instructions just by asking a question. So it's not always clear cut. If I'm being honest whilst I see Mahamudra and Dzogchen to be equal in terms the level of realization I think these days a student would be wiser to follow the more open approach of Dzogchen. My view of this is recently formed so don't take my word for it.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: restricted texts question
Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche does exactly that. According to Erik Pema Kunzang although Rinpoche has had a history of teaching Dzogchen, he is mainly focussing on Essence Mahamudra these days. He basically starts with the pointing out rather ngondro etc. first.anjali wrote:Ideally, I'd like to find a teacher who would start with the pointing out instructions and will work with students at the level of Essence Mahamudra and straight shamatha/vipashyana training. It would be great to work with a master on one of the key meditation texts after pointing out instructions.
Same with Tsoknyi Rinpoche, although he focusses on Dzogchen.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
Re: restricted texts question
Actually Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche keeps teaching Dzogchen several times every year but it is true he is putting more emphasis on Mahamudra these days.Paul wrote:Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche does exactly that. According to Erik Pema Kunzang although Rinpoche has had a history of teaching Dzogchen, he is mainly focussing on Essence Mahamudra these days. He basically starts with the pointing out rather ngondro etc. first.anjali wrote:Ideally, I'd like to find a teacher who would start with the pointing out instructions and will work with students at the level of Essence Mahamudra and straight shamatha/vipashyana training. It would be great to work with a master on one of the key meditation texts after pointing out instructions.
Same with Tsoknyi Rinpoche, although he focusses on Dzogchen.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: restricted texts question
Hi Magnus - I've just remembered what Erik said a bit clearer: he was explaining that the terminology Rinpoche was using these days is now mainly Mahamudra. As far as I can tell from what older students (ie you!) the content and style has not changed much.heart wrote:Actually Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche keeps teaching Dzogchen several times every year but it is true he is putting more emphasis on Mahamudra these days.
/magnus
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
Re: restricted texts question
When he is teaching very freely I think that is true but if he teach a Dzogchen text he will use Dzogchen terminology. Not that it matter that much, only for me the Dzogchen terminology make more sense.Paul wrote:Hi Magnus - I've just remembered what Erik said a bit clearer: he was explaining that the terminology Rinpoche was using these days is now mainly Mahamudra. As far as I can tell from what older students (ie you!) the content and style has not changed much.heart wrote:Actually Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche keeps teaching Dzogchen several times every year but it is true he is putting more emphasis on Mahamudra these days.
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: restricted texts question
heart wrote:About this particular text it is that it contain a kind of a teachers guidance commentary: Ask the student this, if answer that then ask him to do this, if answer like that ask him to do that. So it could destroy the experience of receiving these kind of pointing-out for someone that haven't got it. Which would be a shame.
/magnus
Thanks Andrew and Magnus for the replies. So then, would the ideal situation be that all copies of the text--even those in Tibetan--get restricted for all students until their teacher gives them the necessary instructions?Andrew108 wrote:The restriction of a particular text depends on the teacher and how the blessings are passed on. With Sutra Mahamudra everything is pretty much open. With Essence Mahamudra things are much more closed because there are aspects that if known will harm the pointing out - I guess.
The problem teachers have today is that the Tibetan texts have been made so widely available that teachers can't physically restrict the Tibetan originals. But since they can restrict the translations they've made they follow the traditional/ideal practice for them. Yes? No?
Re: restricted texts question
Well, I think it is the rampant spiritual materialism in the west that frighten the Tibetan Lamas. I guess they had problem like this in Tibet to, but very small scale. However I think eventually most restricted texts will be freely available. It is in the interest of Tibetans to preserve their culture and religion.Finney wrote:heart wrote:About this particular text it is that it contain a kind of a teachers guidance commentary: Ask the student this, if answer that then ask him to do this, if answer like that ask him to do that. So it could destroy the experience of receiving these kind of pointing-out for someone that haven't got it. Which would be a shame.
/magnusThanks Andrew and Magnus for the replies. So then, would the ideal situation be that all copies of the text--even those in Tibetan--get restricted for all students until their teacher gives them the necessary instructions?Andrew108 wrote:The restriction of a particular text depends on the teacher and how the blessings are passed on. With Sutra Mahamudra everything is pretty much open. With Essence Mahamudra things are much more closed because there are aspects that if known will harm the pointing out - I guess.
The problem teachers have today is that the Tibetan texts have been made so widely available that teachers can't physically restrict the Tibetan originals. But since they can restrict the translations they've made they follow the traditional/ideal practice for them. Yes? No?
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: restricted texts question
Your average Tibetan would have problems understanding the Tibetan text without a detailed commentary. I was at a teaching on Mahamudra by Garchen Rinpoche and the Tibetan translator, who was otherwise very good, kept fumbling the translation of the Mahamudra terminology.Finney wrote:There's something about these restricted texts that I've never understood. Not all restricted texts as I can see why a tradition might want to reserve certain teachings. Rather, it's that the restrictions aren't always applied equally. In this case, if you're Tibetan or a westerner who can read Tibetan, then the text is freely available. Otherwise you need special permission. I've come across this before but it's never made sense to me.
Am I overlooking an important point here?
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
Re: restricted texts question
Again, thank you all for your comments.
In my own case, I've been meditating for a really long time now. However, I have thoroughly enjoyed and benefited from the detailed Mahamudra meditation teachings--especially vipashyana. (That goes for Dzogchen teachings to.) As I've said, I have especially enjoyed the meditation manual commentaries by Thrangu Rinpoche. For example, reading side-by-side Clarifying the Natural State (Tashi Namgyal) + Crystal Clear (Thrangu commentary) was very productive. I was hoping to do the same with Wangchuk Dorje's texts.
In my reading, reference to the three main meditation texts by the 9th Karmapa kept turning up. Of the three (Pointing out the Dharmakaya, Eliminating the Ignorance of Darkness, and The Ocean of Definitive Meaning), it turns out that Eliminating the Ignorance of Darkness is available in print. The other two are of course restricted. It's an odd situation with those three texts. There are written commentaries available for the restricted texts, but no commentaries available (that I can find) for the unrestricted text! I found a 7 DVD set (for 104 USD) of Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on Eliminating but no available transcription. Yet, there are plenty of commentaries for the restricted texts. (In addition to Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on The Ocean, I also liked Traleg Kyabgon's commentary.) Go figure.
At least I'm starting to get a handle on the restricted text issue and how next to proceed. Personally, I have no problem with restricted texts. I come from a tradition that also has restricted teachings and meditation methods.
Moving on to the issue of teachers. Some other folks I talked with have also suggested Tulku Urgyen's sons. I'm considering this. My first introduction to Tibetan Buddhism was Tulku Urgyen's works. I felt a strong connection with him and his lucid teachings. Unfortunately, he has long since passed on. I've tried reading his sons' works. They are good, but don't grab me like Tulku Urgyen's works. Still, I'm open to possibilities. Tsoknyi is currently on a book tour in the US promoting his new book. In mid-June he will be visiting a bookstore about 4 hours from where I live. So, my plan is to drive up and see him. I would like to see Chokyi Nyima but am not sure how to go about that. I am open to suggestions of other teachers. Don't hesitate to PM me if you think it would be useful. (Thanks Silent Bob, your PM is much appreciated and I will respond soon.)
In my own case, I've been meditating for a really long time now. However, I have thoroughly enjoyed and benefited from the detailed Mahamudra meditation teachings--especially vipashyana. (That goes for Dzogchen teachings to.) As I've said, I have especially enjoyed the meditation manual commentaries by Thrangu Rinpoche. For example, reading side-by-side Clarifying the Natural State (Tashi Namgyal) + Crystal Clear (Thrangu commentary) was very productive. I was hoping to do the same with Wangchuk Dorje's texts.
In my reading, reference to the three main meditation texts by the 9th Karmapa kept turning up. Of the three (Pointing out the Dharmakaya, Eliminating the Ignorance of Darkness, and The Ocean of Definitive Meaning), it turns out that Eliminating the Ignorance of Darkness is available in print. The other two are of course restricted. It's an odd situation with those three texts. There are written commentaries available for the restricted texts, but no commentaries available (that I can find) for the unrestricted text! I found a 7 DVD set (for 104 USD) of Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on Eliminating but no available transcription. Yet, there are plenty of commentaries for the restricted texts. (In addition to Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on The Ocean, I also liked Traleg Kyabgon's commentary.) Go figure.
At least I'm starting to get a handle on the restricted text issue and how next to proceed. Personally, I have no problem with restricted texts. I come from a tradition that also has restricted teachings and meditation methods.
Moving on to the issue of teachers. Some other folks I talked with have also suggested Tulku Urgyen's sons. I'm considering this. My first introduction to Tibetan Buddhism was Tulku Urgyen's works. I felt a strong connection with him and his lucid teachings. Unfortunately, he has long since passed on. I've tried reading his sons' works. They are good, but don't grab me like Tulku Urgyen's works. Still, I'm open to possibilities. Tsoknyi is currently on a book tour in the US promoting his new book. In mid-June he will be visiting a bookstore about 4 hours from where I live. So, my plan is to drive up and see him. I would like to see Chokyi Nyima but am not sure how to go about that. I am open to suggestions of other teachers. Don't hesitate to PM me if you think it would be useful. (Thanks Silent Bob, your PM is much appreciated and I will respond soon.)
-
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- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:06 am
Re: restricted texts question
It is rampant on this website!Andrew108 wrote:
Well, I think it is the rampant spiritual materialism in the west that frighten the Tibetan Lamas.
We always want to practice higher than we can understand.
We have to control that thinking with basic meditation.