Karma in Dzogchen

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Karma in Dzogchen

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 30, 2012 8:31 am

" karma" is a gyp. A notion that Bon aped from Buddhism.
Last edited by Mr. G on Wed May 30, 2012 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Topic Split from: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8565
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed May 30, 2012 8:35 am

Lobsang P. wrote:" karma" is a gyp. A notion that Bon aped from Buddhism.



Tashi delek,

Very interesting what you wrote but i am missing the meaning here at all.
Maybe possible to explain it more?

Thanks

Mutsog Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby heart » Wed May 30, 2012 8:38 am

Lobsang P. wrote:" karma" is a gyp. A notion that Bon aped from Buddhism.


So you can stay in the natural state indefinitely "Lobsang"? It is the only way to avoid karma you know.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 30, 2012 8:44 am

heart wrote:
Lobsang P. wrote:" karma" is a gyp. A notion that Bon aped from Buddhism.


So you can stay in the natural state indefinitely "Lobsang"? It is the only way to avoid karma you know.

/magnus

Yes I used to buy into that " Heart". Of course you have to believe it. The whole edifice of Buddhism and its imitations crumbles otherwise doesn't it ? It is clearly a pretty unsubtle convention.
Useful as training reins.
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 30, 2012 10:40 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Lobsang P. wrote:" karma" is a gyp. A notion that Bon aped from Buddhism.



Tashi delek,

Very interesting what you wrote but i am missing the meaning here at all.
Maybe possible to explain it more?

Thanks

Mutsog Marro
KY

Karma/vipaka is operative to the degree that we give it power by identification.
We do not need to be fully realized in order for a lack of identification with actor/action/consequence to arise.
We do need however to be introduced to our natural condition by one who is realized.
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby heart » Wed May 30, 2012 10:43 am

Lobsang P. wrote:
heart wrote:
Lobsang P. wrote:" karma" is a gyp. A notion that Bon aped from Buddhism.


So you can stay in the natural state indefinitely "Lobsang"? It is the only way to avoid karma you know.

/magnus

Yes I used to buy into that " Heart". Of course you have to believe it. The whole edifice of Buddhism and its imitations crumbles otherwise doesn't it ? It is clearly a pretty unsubtle convention.
Useful as training reins.


Seriously, you making a major mistake. In Mahayoga everything is primordially pure and equal, it is the same as Dzogchen (more or less). But karma is as long as you have ups and downs, joys and sorrows. You would not be here on this forum if you didn't, so please be careful. Stating that karma is a convention just shows that you know very little about yourself.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 30, 2012 11:11 am

Ups, downs.joys sorrows etc may well be congruent with the Karma/Vipaka model of reality.
That is nothing to do with our natural state.

Its like we read the words and listen to the talks but we dont really believe it.
We prefer to struggle. It gives us a sense of purpose.
The words must apply to someone else, we think. Or some future time.
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby heart » Wed May 30, 2012 11:27 am

Lobsang P. wrote:Ups, downs.joys sorrows etc may well be congruent with the Karma/Vipaka model of reality.
That is nothing to do with our natural state.

Its like we read the words and listen to the talks but we dont really believe it.
We prefer to struggle. It gives us a sense of purpose.
The words must apply to someone else, we think. Or some future time.


There is no karma in the natural state, no karma in emptiness, no karma in enlightenment. If you are a sentient being on the other hand, there is karma. Ask any Dzogchen master you want. Please ask ChNNR if you trust him. The natural state do apply to me right now, don't think I am pushing it in front of me. However, I am constantly caught again and again in the stormy waves of thought and emotion. So I do also exercise a lot of caution to what I say and do. It actually helps when you are not very stable in the natural state.


/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby rai » Wed May 30, 2012 11:46 am

If you think, 'I will have no karmic ripening even if I engage in the
ten unvirtuous acts,' you should be able to accept the ten unvirtuous
acts of others directed towards you—even if it might result in your
death. Can you do that?
- Shri Singha

Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 30, 2012 11:53 am

rai wrote:
If you think, 'I will have no karmic ripening even if I engage in the
ten unvirtuous acts,' you should be able to accept the ten unvirtuous
acts of others directed towards you—even if it might result in your
death. Can you do that?
- Shri Singha


There is no choice. There is no option.
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Re: Karma in Dzogchen

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 30, 2012 12:51 pm

I have reservations about this thread. It was spun off from another thread in which it had a context.
It was a response to a post. It was not a bald statement without context.
If it serves a purpose so be it.
But with respect, I will not be contributing to it.


:namaste:
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Re: Karma in Dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed May 30, 2012 1:15 pm

According to my understanding and looking only to this thread, Magnus is completely correct.
Lobsang, missing the context it's complicated to understand what you were trying to say.
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Re: Karma in Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Wed May 30, 2012 1:17 pm

Lobsang P. wrote:I have reservations about this thread. It was spun off from another thread in which it had a context.
It was a response to a post. It was not a bald statement without context.


When I split this thread, I could not find the context that this was placed in. Let me know which post it is, and I will attempt to merge that post to this thread, or we can just link to the individual post.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Karma in Dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed May 30, 2012 1:30 pm

You've been having a brutal load of work to keep these topics running, Mr. G.
Thank you for all the job you've been doing.
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Re: Karma in Dzogchen

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 30, 2012 1:31 pm

quote="Mr. G"]
Lobsang P. wrote:I have reservations about this thread. It was spun off from another thread in which it had a context.
It was a response to a post. It was not a bald statement without context.


When I split this thread, I could not find the context that this was placed in. Let me know which post it is, and I will attempt to merge that post to this thread, or we can just link to the individual post.[/quote]


Or I can just get over myself and stop being a dog- in- the- manger Mr G. :smile:
:namaste:
Last edited by Simon E. on Wed May 30, 2012 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Karma in Dzogchen

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 30, 2012 1:34 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:According to my understanding and looking only to this thread, Magnus is completely correct.
Lobsang, missing the context it's complicated to understand what you were trying to say.


Basically it was saying that the Dzogchen view is not earned by purification of karma. Or any other means. Its a gift from those who have it.
At least that was what I meant to say.

:namaste:
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Re: Karma in Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Wed May 30, 2012 2:11 pm

Lobsang P. wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:According to my understanding and looking only to this thread, Magnus is completely correct.
Lobsang, missing the context it's complicated to understand what you were trying to say.


Basically it was saying that the Dzogchen view is not earned by purification of karma. Or any other means. Its a gift from those who have it.
At least that was what I meant to say.

:namaste:


... but for those who receive the gift, it needs to already be at a requested minimum quantity of limitation, or at least without some specific limitations. So a certain job would have to be done.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:00 am

Simon E. wrote:Its like we read the words and listen to the talks but we dont really believe it.


No Dzogchen teachings ancient or recent state that karma is anything less than infallibly functioning for beings in their relative condition. If you're distracted from your knowledge of the natural state, you are accumulating some kind of karma through your thoughts, speech, and actions. Trust that.

That the Dzogchen view cannot be directly earned through purification of karma is absolutely true, but an entirely different matter from the functioning of karma in the context of ignorance.

Beyond this, even though apprehension of the natural state does not directly have anything to do with karma, we definitely shouldn't think that positive karma and karmic connections played no role in us being born with adequate faculties, freedoms, and circumstances to allow us to be able to communicate with others (and therefore be able to understand the words of our Dzogchen masters), be interested in Dzogchen teachings and be able to otherwise participate accordingly, not to mention meet our Dzogchen masters and receive their teachings. One need only consider the overwhelming numbers of sentient beings for whom these things are not even a remote possibility.
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Re: Karma in Dzogchen

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:35 pm

Dzogchen does as it will. Our merit has nothing at all to do with it.
We can and need no more earn it than we can grow our body in the womb , or breath while asleep by an act of will.

:namaste:
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Re: Karma in Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:04 am

:D
Simon E. wrote:Dzogchen does as it will. Our merit has nothing at all to do with it.
We can and need no more earn it than we can grow our body in the womb , or breath while asleep by an act of will.

:namaste:



Tashi delek,

Merit or good karma is needed to get in touch with Dzogchen.
Even to be in the womb is due to Ma rigpa and is based on karma.
The most persons before they met Dzogchen, were in the state of Ma rigpa. Due to karma, one can get in touch with Dzogchen, but how many don' t get in touch with Dzogchen, due to their karma? My mom is one of them.... :D


Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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