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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:36 am 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
username wrote:
Hi DN,


Yes, you are right you didn't say it. I was adding, not contraposing. Sorry if it looked that way.
About the rest, no disagreements here.

Best wishes.


Right, my mistaken perception then, sorry.
Take Care Dechen.

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:45 am 
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username wrote:
Rinpoche explained these a couple of days ago. There are two key words. He siad if someone comes to me and is interested in Dzogchen but has another religion that means he has capacity for Dzogchen so I WELCOME them and give Dzogchen teachings. Then they can START like this. Also we know rinpoche says after DI which is beyond 9 yanas, for practice the MINIMUM is ATI Guru Yoga in it's various forms or just the short form. Meanwhile as a BEGINNER you can still have ecelectic beliefs like some here are Hindus or worship Jehova or God the father refusing emptiness. Or you can carry on doing your previous hippy dippy yoga of Jesus Rinpoche or Scientology of aliens or whatever. It is really the same with all rinpoches. They do not quizz beginners saying now we need an inquisition to purify you of your current contradictory beliefs. To me most Tibetan lamas' large teachings' audiences are like the cafe in the desert in Star Wars of various types of aliens, all sorts of people.

People take their time. Some never fully abandon contradictory beliefs to Dzogchen and/or buddhism as we see in all subforums here. So ChNNR is the same as all dharma teachers saying ALL ARE WELCOME. But you can't complete the four visions if for example you dismiss emptiness in favor if a bearded god and his son or other stories as inherently existing.


I haven't seen anyone here suggest eclecticism, and I for one am against it. Systems must be practiced according to their own underlying sense or they will be of little benefit and lead to much confusion. This isn't however just a question of tolerating something at the beginning until the student gets "true religion". There are many reasons for applying multiple paths, not the least of which is not getting conditioned by any single belief structure to the point of zealotry. I think we have seen quite enough in the course of these prolific threads to justify that afresh for me.

In almost a quarter century of side-by-side practice of advaitavedanta, shaktatantra and vajrayana I have never felt that the goals or methods were all that different let alone contradictory. The hermeneutics differ, the emphasis, but never the resultant realization. Receiving the mahavakya is very much the same sort of direct introduction that one receives in any other sudden path system. Actually try to practice 'neti, neti' and then tell me that Hindus have no understanding of emptiness. The only meaningful difference seems to be that Dzogchen makes explicit and *easy* certain methods of integrating awareness with experience that are not explicit in these other systems. This is not to say that those that reach high levels of realization through these other systems don't either intuit or receive such instructions in another realm, symbolically, etc.

If BEGINNER mind is what I need to continue on my path, I hope I never lose it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:56 am 
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username wrote:
Some never fully abandon contradictory beliefs to Dzogchen...


Including Buddhists as we can clearly see on this forum.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:24 am 
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Buddhism is an illusory upaya. So is Dzogchen. In Garab's third stage's use of various liberations, much if not all can be used for constant liberations according to personal karmic POV. Best of all, all of daily life which is wonderful.

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:31 am 
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username wrote:
Buddhism is an illusory upaya...


Then all your sturm and drung and breast beating is rather unnecessary.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:41 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
username wrote:
Buddhism is an illusory upaya...


Then all your sturm and drung and breast beating is rather unnecessary.

It would seem so.

Kevin

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:50 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
username wrote:
Buddhism is an illusory upaya...


Then all your sturm and drung and breast beating is rather unnecessary.


You are projecting your mid life crisis onto others again.

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:01 am 
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username wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
username wrote:
Buddhism is an illusory upaya...


Then all your sturm and drung and breast beating is rather unnecessary.


You are projecting your mid life crisis onto others again.

You know I can't understand why people say things like this. Even if you disagree with someone else we are still all Dzogchenpas here (and Vajra family correct???). So simply agree to disagree and don't get personal. What does this discussion have to do with a mid-life crisis at all. And Namdrol, having recently become a doctor, having a beautiful girlfriend and home and so forth, I doubt he has a mid-life crisis.

Kevin

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:59 am 
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Virgo wrote:
What does this discussion have to do with a mid-life crisis at all.
Kevin



Noithing of course. But because I decided once and for all to depart from the mask I have maitained for years as an orthodox Buddhist polemicist, people are understandably puzzled, critical, or disbelieving.

Once people have fixed you in their minds, if you do not satisfy their criteria of you, they generally become critical. For example, when I originally defended meat-eating on E-Sangha, some people supported that, others did not. When I went through a phase of having personal issues with eating meat, and discussed it, some people supported it, others did not. When I reversed my thinking about it once and for all, some of the people who supported me in my meat-critical phase were understandably puzzled at my reversal of perspective.

Now, some people are do not like the fact that as far as I am concerned, "Buddhism" is just another limitation. They do not like the fact that I am not holding some sacred place for Buddhism over against non-Buddhist religions. They think that this is some sudden shift on my part. But had they really been paying attention to my posts over the years they would have noted my gradual evolution away from "Buddhism" per se.

They have not understood my basic point at all:
    ...when you have received direct introduction, and are diligently applying the practice of Dzogchen, it does not matter at all what you beleive while you are not practicing, it does not matter what your intellectual view is. Dzogchen view is not an intellectual posture, it is a personal experience of instant presence, and no amount of "correct" Buddhist thinking will lead you to that personal experience of your primordial state, and no amount of "incorrect" non-Buddhist thinking will prevent you from having that personal experience of your primordial state if you diligently apply the teaching in practice having received direct introduction.

People seem not to realize that this is precisely what is stated in many Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas.

M

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:14 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
They have not understood my basic point at all:
    ...when you have received direct introduction, and are diligently applying the practice of Dzogchen, it does not matter at all what you beleive while you are not practicing, it does not matter what your intellectual view is, because Dzogchen view is not an intellectual posture, it is a personal experience of instant presence, and no amount of "correct" Buddhist thinking will lead you to that personal experience of your primordial state, and no amount of "incorrect" non-Buddhist thinking will prevent you from having that personal experience of your primordial state if you diligently apply the teaching in practice having received direct introduction. People seem not to realize that this is precisely what is stated in many Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas.

M

I agree with the above. People are just caught up in thinking, grasping. Chillax folks. Don't grasp.



Kevin

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:15 am 
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Personally I have misunderstood some key but subtle points concerning the Dzogchen teachings. Perhaps I had misunderstood these points because of my Buddhist conditioning. It's possible. Malcolm has been really helpful. I'm quite stubborn and don't really follow the crowd, but in another thread Malcolm explained in more detail the differences between Dzogchen and Buddhism and this has been very useful for me.

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"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:16 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
Virgo wrote:
What does this discussion have to do with a mid-life crisis at all.
Kevin



They have not understood my basic point at all:
    ...when you have received direct introduction, and are diligently applying the practice of Dzogchen, it does not matter at all what you beleive while you are not practicing, it does not matter what your intellectual view is.

    When not practicing that means to fall back in the mind of karma. or when one is not abiding in the Natural State. You are speaking hear about not practicing, Apearences etc. are then in case of not practising seen as illusion. So if you would believe outside practice some things like because everything is illusion, karma is not existing, then that is a wrong intellectual view.
    So it is imo important to maintain the right believe / conviction / view if one is out of the Natural State and additional this can also be reached if one is out of the Natural State by the preliminaries. So also a right intellectual view is needed when not abiding in the Natural State, done by the study etc
    .



    Dzogchen view is not an intellectual posture, it is a personal experience of instant presence, and no amount of "correct" Buddhist thinking will lead you to that personal experience of your primordial state, and no amount of "incorrect" non-Buddhist thinking will prevent you from having that personal experience of your primordial state if you diligently apply the teaching in practice having received direct introduction.


Like i many times did explained we know as well in Buddhist Dzogchen as well Bon Dzogchen the preliminaries where is thought in a correct motivation, that will lead you gradual to the more and more cleaned mind which is then ready to experience . Thinking will never lead you to the experience of the Naturtal State, so this counts for everybody and not exclusively to (non) Buddhism / Buddhist. Why pointing out to Buddhism if it is a general rule?


IF Diligently applying does mean also to meet some breaks in between. Integration with the natural State must be prolongued little by little so what is happening in between? Maintaining the vision of illusion which seems to be included in many Buddhists teachings.


People seem not to realize that this is precisely what is stated in many Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas.


M

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:32 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
Virgo wrote:
What does this discussion have to do with a mid-life crisis at all.
Kevin



Noithing of course. But because I decided once and for all to depart from the mask I have maitained for years as an orthodox Buddhist polemicist, people are understandably puzzled, critical, or disbelieving.

Once people have fixed you in their minds, if you do not satisfy their criteria of you, they generally become critical. For example, when I originally defended meat-eating on E-Sangha, some people supported that, others did not. When I went through a phase of having personal issues with eating meat, and discussed it, some people supported it, others did not. When I reversed my thinking about it once and for all, some of the people who supported me in my meat-critical phase were understandably puzzled at my reversal of perspective.

Now, some people are do not like the fact that as far as I am concerned, "Buddhism" is just another limitation. They do not like the fact that I am not holding some sacred place for Buddhism over against non-Buddhist religions. They think that this is some sudden shift on my part. But had they really been paying attention to my posts over the years they would have noted my gradual evolution away from "Buddhism" per se.

They have not understood my basic point at all:
    ...when you have received direct introduction, and are diligently applying the practice of Dzogchen, it does not matter at all what you beleive while you are not practicing, it does not matter what your intellectual view is. Dzogchen view is not an intellectual posture, it is a personal experience of instant presence, and no amount of "correct" Buddhist thinking will lead you to that personal experience of your primordial state, and no amount of "incorrect" non-Buddhist thinking will prevent you from having that personal experience of your primordial state if you diligently apply the teaching in practice having received direct introduction.

People seem not to realize that this is precisely what is stated in many Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas.

M


Malcolm,

You know for me being Buddhist has nothing to do with belief or intellectual ideas. It is a path. Since I received direct introduction from my Guru 20 years ago I have slowly come to the conclusion that the practices I been working so hard at before receiving direct introduction were actually perfectly designed to make you relax in the natural state. So you can say that the direct introduction verified Buddhism as a valid path for me and also as a very perfect path. When I applauded your now removed blogpost on the inability to separate Dzogchen and Buddhism, that you wrote in response to Jim Valby teaching "Dzogchen without Buddhism", it was of course a lack of openness on my part. You see I never had any other spiritual path or religion than Buddhism. I wasn't baptized, never took the first communion, never felt interested i anything but old magic and anarchism when I was young. Never did yoga. Never cared about Indian Guru's and I thought the Sannyasi's and the Hare Khrisna were ridiculous. In general I must say that I know very little about spiritual paths compared with the people on this forum for example. I think that is a good thing I learned from this discussion, that one actually is limited in many ways. For this reason it is probably a bad idea to say that you have to be a Buddhist to attain full enlightenment, I certainly don't know that. But I am afraid I can't give up the label "Buddhist" because it is the path I am standing on, it is the methods I use, and its heart of wisdom is the Dzogchen Tantras. Anyway Malcolm, you certainly know how to put the house on fire, it is your dramatic streak. Sorry if I come of as the small minded and limited person I am. So, in to the lions mouth with you Loppon Kunga Namdrol Malcolm Smith and may you only know happiness and go from clarity to clarity.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:34 am 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Virgo wrote:
What does this discussion have to do with a mid-life crisis at all.
Kevin



They have not understood my basic point at all:
    ...when you have received direct introduction, and are diligently applying the practice of Dzogchen, it does not matter at all what you beleive while you are not practicing, it does not matter what your intellectual view is.

    When not practicing that means to fall back in the mind of karma. or when one is not abiding in the Natural State. You are speaking hear about not practicing, Apearences etc. are then in case of not practising seen as illusion. So if you would believe outside practice some things like because everything is illusion, karma is not existing, then that is a wrong intellectual view.
    So it is imo important to maintain the right believe / conviction / view if one is out of the Natural State and additional this can also be reached if one is out of the Natural State by the preliminaries. So also a right intellectual view is needed when not abiding in the Natural State, done by the study etc
    .



You miss the point ... there is nothing to maintain in Buddhism. Your job is to eradicate ALL limitations ... "not remaining in darkness"

Quote:

Dzogchen view is not an intellectual posture, it is a personal experience of instant presence, and no amount of "correct" Buddhist thinking will lead you to that personal experience of your primordial state, and no amount of "incorrect" non-Buddhist thinking will prevent you from having that personal experience of your primordial state if you diligently apply the teaching in practice having received direct introduction.

Like i many times did explained we know as well in Buddhist Dzogchen as well Bon Dzogchen the preliminaries where is thought in a correct motivation, that will lead you gradual to the more and more cleaned mind which is then ready to experience . Thinking will never lead you to the experience of the Naturtal State, so this counts for everybody and not exclusively to (non) Buddhism / Buddhist. Why pointing out to Buddhism if it is a general rule?


Garab Dorjé did'nt point to Buddhism, he did not taught 4 statements with a first one being "you have to learn Buddhism".

Quote:

IF Diligently applying does mean also to meet some breaks in between. Integration with the natural State must be prolongued little by little so what is happening in between? Maintaining the vision of illusion which seems to be included in many Buddhists teachings.


People seem not to realize that this is precisely what is stated in many Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas.


M



Tashi delek,[/quote]

Sönam

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


Last edited by Sönam on Wed May 30, 2012 8:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:42 am 
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Only grasping is "splitting" Dzogchen, from Buddhism, and even from whatever. No openess in which all are included in vast warmth. (but this is flower power shit of course).

No compassion. Hitler said that he wished all could live in peace, but for that obviously many wrong ones had to be destroyed.
Icy cold dual rigpa. No buddhism, no Dzogchen.
This cannot be the meaning of words here, for sure.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:45 am 
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quote="Sönam"]
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Virgo wrote:
What does this discussion have to do with a mid-life crisis at all.
Kevin



They have not understood my basic point at all:
    ...when you have received direct introduction, and are diligently applying the practice of Dzogchen, it does not matter at all what you beleive while you are not practicing, it does not matter what your intellectual view is.

    When not practicing that means to fall back in the mind of karma. or when one is not abiding in the Natural State. You are speaking hear about not practicing, Apearences etc. are then in case of not practising seen as illusion. So if you would believe outside practice some things like because everything is illusion, karma is not existing, then that is a wrong intellectual view.
    So it is imo important to maintain the right believe / conviction / view if one is out of the Natural State and additional this can also be reached if one is out of the Natural State by the preliminaries. So also a right intellectual view is needed when not abiding in the Natural State, done by the study etc
    .



You miss the point ... there is nothing to maintain in Buddhism. Your job is to eradicate ALL limitations ... "not remaining in darkness"
Sorry i was dealing here with abiding NOT in the Natural State
Quote:

Dzogchen view is not an intellectual posture, it is a personal experience of instant presence, and no amount of "correct" Buddhist thinking will lead you to that personal experience of your primordial state, and no amount of "incorrect" non-Buddhist thinking will prevent you from having that personal experience of your primordial state if you diligently apply the teaching in practice having received direct introduction.

Like i many times did explained we know as well in Buddhist Dzogchen as well Bon Dzogchen the preliminaries where is thought in a correct motivation, that will lead you gradual to the more and more cleaned mind which is then ready to experience . Thinking will never lead you to the experience of the Naturtal State, so this counts for everybody and not exclusively to (non) Buddhism / Buddhist. Why pointing out to Buddhism if it is a general rule?


Garab Dorjé did'nt point to Buddhism, he did not taught 4 statements with a first one being "you have to learn Buddhism".

[color=#0080FF]Garab Dorje has also an emanation in Bon. Bon has a Buddha and so maybe Garab Dorje teached also Buddha Dharma?


IF Diligently applying does mean also to meet some breaks in between. Integration with the natural State must be prolongued little by little so what is happening in between? Maintaining the vision of illusion which seems to be included in many Buddhists teachings.
[/color]

People seem not to realize that this is precisely what is stated in many Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas.


M[/quote]


Tashi delek,[/quote]

Sönam[/quote]

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:59 am 
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I only read few words.

Only ones own clinging mind to Buddhist tools and other ideas is separating "Buddhism" and "Dzogchen".

Dzogchen is embracing all, then the meaning of the Buddha is clear.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:16 am 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
...
Integration with the natural State must be prolongued little by little so what is happening in between? Maintaining the vision of illusion which seems to be included in many Buddhists teachings.
...
Tashi delek,


Prolongation can be little by little or not, there is no in between. Practice is a continuity, and it consists in giving up our limitations. Limitations is all what separates this and that ...

Sönam

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:57 am 
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Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
...
Integration with the natural State must be prolongued little by little so what is happening in between? Maintaining the vision of illusion which seems to be included in many Buddhists teachings.
...
Tashi delek,


Prolongation can be little by little or not, there is no in between. Practice is a continuity, and it consists in giving up our limitations. Limitations is all what separates this and that ...

Sönam



Tashi delek,

One / somebody is in the natural State or not, even after little by little is realised one is leaving untill the next practice, If there would no between we would be for 24h a day in the natural State. So this is possible but for the most for a few time daily. So out of the Natural State, then was my opinion that one should maintain the view of illusion. That keeps practice continued. :D

Mutsog Marro
KY

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:31 am 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
...
Integration with the natural State must be prolongued little by little so what is happening in between? Maintaining the vision of illusion which seems to be included in many Buddhists teachings.
...
Tashi delek,


Prolongation can be little by little or not, there is no in between. Practice is a continuity, and it consists in giving up our limitations. Limitations is all what separates this and that ...

Sönam



Tashi delek,

One / somebody is in the natural State or not, even after little by little is realised one is leaving untill the next practice, If there would no between we would be for 24h a day in the natural State. So this is possible but for the most for a few time daily. So out of the Natural State, then was my opinion that one should maintain the view of illusion. That keeps practice continued. :D

Mutsog Marro
KY


The question one may ask is, engaged practices are they those who help to eliminate limitation ... or am'I turning around the pot? :smile:

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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