Dzogchen and Buddhism

[Mariusz]

I'm not so brave to experiment with other yet incompatible supports like other religions/atheism. So I'd like the quickest

Yet another misconception -- no one has suggested expirimenting with other religions.

To reiterate, people may, if they are interested, learn and practice Dzogchen without converting to Buddhism or abandoning their previous faiths. What is so difficult to understand about this statement?

I have no where said that anyone should feel compelled to rush out and become a Hari Krishna. I have basically said that a Dzogchen practitioner should feel free to go anywhere and study anything they feel will be useful for their personal path.

you are suggesting it in this very post. To have faith for example in no bardo state after death at all, and practice rushen according to it, is the experiment. I don't like further to write on rushen because I'm not allowed.

[Adamantine]

I have no where said that anyone should feel compelled to rush out and become a Hari Krishna. I have basically said that a Dzogchen practitioner should feel free to go anywhere and study anything they feel will be useful for their personal path.

I don't disagree with this, if one is already stabilized in their practice. Otherwise, one may just be getting on the spiritual merry-go-round. I just think anyone who wants to practice Dzogchen is inevitably practicing the Buddhadharma. . . I don't believe it can work to hold onto certain beliefs, such as a single life, a soul that keeps the same form in heaven after death... an unchanging personal Creator God or that there is nothing at all after you die, etc.. and still legitimately be practicing or understanding many of the "Dzogchen" practices which are incidentally identical to Buddhist ones. Call it whatever you want.. the label isn't important but the framework is essential to understanding.

Anyway, if you have a new view now that rainbow-body has happened in many other religions throughout history then that is OK, just say so. But you were the one vehemently opposing John Reynolds accounts of Jesus' having jalu just a couple years ago.. Do you agree with him now?

[Malcolm]

To have faith for example in no bardo state after death at all, and practice rushen according to it, is the experiment. I don't like further to write on rushen because I'm not allowed.

I understand your position now -- you have to accept Buddhist teachings otherwise you are not suitable candidate for Dzogchen -- is that about right? Otherwise you are "experimenting", which is a bad thing.

[Malcolm]

I just think anyone who wants to practice Dzogchen is inevitably practicing the Buddhadharma. . .

There are just as many concepts in Dzogchen that absolutely contradict accepted Buddhist ideas.

Do you agree with him now?

Why would I agree with that? Statements like this prove to me you have really missed my point.

[dorje e gabbana]

There are just as many concepts in Dzogchen that absolutely contradict accepted Buddhist ideas.

it is the same thing that Indian Buddhist Scholars thought before sending Manjushrimitra to debate with Garab Dorje to demonstrate he was not a buddhist master but an erethical, because he apparently contradicted buddhist teachings about karma.

But Manjushrimitra at the end became Garab Dorje's main student showing to his buddhist pandit collegues that his dzog Chen teaching did not contraddict in any way Buddhism, and it was the pinnacle of all buddist teaching

[Mariusz]

To have faith for example in no bardo state after death at all, and practice rushen according to it, is the experiment. I don't like further to write on rushen because I'm not allowed.

I understand your position now -- you have to accept Buddhist teachings otherwise you are not suitable candidate for Dzogchen -- is that about right? Otherwise you are "experimenting", which is a bad thing.

The real Dzogchen pratitioner as I know starts after recognition of DI. If I'm not a such, for example, such experiments are not for me the quickest, but for sure confusing, incompatible. I wrote it in previous posts, please read again.

[Pero]

Simply it is very difficult to concilate thesw 2 facts: Less realized master on one hand and the Spreading of real dozgchen on the other hand, instead of a fake misleading dzogchen taught by not realized master

I guess I just have more confidence in people than you do.

Positive thought is fine if you speak about master like Antony Robbins, but you have not anwered to my previous consideration I quote above

I have not heard about many Rainbow around, after HH Dudjom rinpoche, when according to CNNR stories in Tibet there where many rainbow bodies between Dzog chen masters?

So Malcon, tell me please how you can conciliate Less realized master as the time goes by on one hand and the Spreading of real dzogchen on the other hand?

Well, D&G, most people who realize Dzogchen teachings fully awaken in the bardo. There are 21 capacities of practitioners.

Could you share what are the 21 capacities please? Through PM if it's a secret. Or are they explained somewhere on the net already? I've never heard of them so far.

[Adamantine]

I just think anyone who wants to practice Dzogchen is inevitably practicing the Buddhadharma. . .

There are just as many concepts in Dzogchen that absolutely contradict accepted Buddhist ideas.

That statement would only make sense if you bought into the notion that Dzogchen wasn't an expression of Buddhadharma. I am going to modify your statement
to "there are just as many concepts in Dzogchen that absolutely contradict accepted ideas from lower Yanas". And I agree. The same could be said about each Yana as you compare it to lower ones.

Do you agree with him now?

Why would I agree with that? Statements like this prove to me you have really missed my point.

So maybe express your point more clearly.

The way I see it, ChNN's purpose in saying that Dzogchen is complete in and of itself is to emphasize that ultimate realization only objectively depends on one thing--getting to know one's real condition in an uncontrived way, not learning X amount of ideas and effortful methods. Therefore, as Dzogchen has all the methods required to get to know one's real condition, and since contrived refuge, contrived practice, and contrived accumulation of merit are not required to realize the Dharmakaya for oneself or the Rupakaya for others, nothing but Dzogchen is objectively essential. However, what I do NOT hear him saying is that Dzogchen SHOULD be separated from Buddhism in terms of shunning all other Buddhist practices because one is a Dzogchen practitioner and those other methods are useless to him or her. Over and over he says it's vital for Dzogchen practitioners to know their relative condition and work with their circumstances, and that since so much of our time is spent in this relative condition rather than in knowledge of our real condition, we as individuals are often realistically going to benefit greatly from making use of other Buddhist methods. He explains over and over how limiting it is to look down upon and avoid other yanas' methods simply on the principal that one is a "Dzogchen practitioner." My other Dzogchen teachers have spoken directly on this same matter and even coined the term "Dzog Chung" or "Little Perfection," as opposed to "Great Perfection," to reflect this immature attitude. Only individuals with a great degree of realization of Dzogchen might be better of strictly practicing Trekchod, Togal, or Yangti--which of course you know are the real Dzogchen main practices.

I agree with Pema, and I wonder if ChNN intends there to be a Dzogchen where Christians are using Christian "relative methods" instead of Buddhist ones, and what that would look like. I don't think he means that, but is that what you are saying?

[Malcolm]

Statements like this prove to me you have really missed my point.

So maybe express your point more clearly. [/quote]

I expressed it pretty clearly, but people keep on coming with whatifs and maybes.

My point was only this -- anyone at all can practice Dzogchen a) without abandoning their previous faith b) without converting to Buddhism.

I don't think he means that, but is that what you are saying?

Yes...which is why ChNN encourages his Christian students to continue to go to church if they like. I know one member of the DC who is really into the Dzogchen teachings, was a member of the Tsegyalgar Gakyil a couple of years ago, and who is presently studying in a Baptist seminary in Kentucky. His facebook page combines Dzogchen symbols like A, Aom, and Hūṃ with Jesus and the Apostles.

[dorje e gabbana]

Yes...which is why ChNN encourages his Christian students to continue to go to church if they like. I know one member of the DC who is really into the Dzogchen teachings, was a member of the Tsegyalgar Gakyil a couple of years ago, and who is presently studying in a Baptist seminary in Kentucky. His facebook page combines Dzogchen symbols like A, Aom, and Hūṃ with Jesus and the Apostles.

Despite the fact you seem enthusiastic in presenting this nice melt pot Christian-Dzogchen as a step forward in Dzogchen free diffusion in the global village, it would be interesting to understand how this guy can at the same time follow dzog chen view, where there is no God to pray and the only ultimate refuge is your own nature of mind (as explained in Lonchen Nyntig as for the ultimate Gururyoga), with the teistic Christian approach when you can be saved only because of the grace of Jesus and you have to pray him as a god in order to be saved.

These are 2 tawas very difficult to practice at the same time.....

[Dronma]

Yes...which is why ChNN encourages his Christian students to continue to go to church if they like. I know one member of the DC who is really into the Dzogchen teachings, was a member of the Tsegyalgar Gakyil a couple of years ago, and who is presently studying in a Baptist seminary in Kentucky. His facebook page combines Dzogchen symbols like A, Aom, and Hūṃ with Jesus and the Apostles.

Dear Malcolm, what students do does not prove anything about Dzogchen and ChNN Rinpoche himself! Quite the contrary, I would say...
Of course, Rinpoche is graciously generous with all of us, and he accepts everybody in his teachings. There are also in my place some people who remain Christians while practising Dzogchen. At the same time, they recognize and respect deeply the Buddhist quality of ChNN Rinpoche's teachings and they do not deny it at all. They consider themselves as Buddhists also.
The relative truth is not the same for everybody, and it never abides in the extremes of total acceptance or total denial.

[Malcolm]

Yes...which is why ChNN encourages his Christian students to continue to go to church if they like. I know one member of the DC who is really into the Dzogchen teachings, was a member of the Tsegyalgar Gakyil a couple of years ago, and who is presently studying in a Baptist seminary in Kentucky. His facebook page combines Dzogchen symbols like A, Aom, and Hūṃ with Jesus and the Apostles.

Despite the fact you seem enthusiastic in presenting this nice melt pot Christian-Dzogchen as a step forward in Dzogchen free diffusion in the global village, it would be interesting to understand how this guy can at the same time follow dzog chen view, where there is no God to pray and the only ultimate refuge is your own nature of mind (as explained in Lonchen Nyntig as for the ultimate Gururyoga), with the teistic Christian approach when you can be saved only because of the grace of Jesus and you have to pray him as a god in order to be saved.

These are 2 tawas very difficult to practice at the same time.....

As ChNN says, if you regard god a symbol of your primodial potentiality, then there is no problem. In any event, you can just keep assuming that your point of view is right util you decide differently. For example, last night I had a discussion with an SMS teacher, and he felt there was no problem at all in including Jesus in your refuge tree.

I used to be like you, a True Buddhist(tm) member of Dzogchen Community and always had (minor) arguments with people who did share your (and my former) POV. I gave it up because my former view (your present view) and Rinpoches teachings on these issues do not correspond. There are very few people I know in the community that have your POV. But it is ok, I respect it even if I don't agree with it for many reasons, not least of which is that I read TIbetan fluently and have access to the originals.

But I did not give up my former POV based on ChNN's say so. I gave it up because I personally understood that all this stuff which is so important to you, dronma, magnus, adamantine, greg and kalsang yungdrung was completely extraneous to the teachings.

M

[Malcolm]

They consider themselves as Buddhists also.

Well, no they don't. I can introduce you to many people I know very well in the DC who just do not think of themselves as Buddhist, and if you ask them, they will deny they are Buddhists. If you tell them are taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, they will say, no, I am taking refuge in the Guru, deva and dakini.

Trust me, for years I told all these people they were Buddhists even if they did not care to lable themselves such. Then I understood, and now I accept their point of view. Also I don't feel that need anymore to belong to the religion called "buddhism". And I am pretty expert in "Buddhism", ask anyone -- that is why I have an Acarya degree from the Sakya school, and so on.

[Dronma]

They consider themselves as Buddhists also.

Well, no they don't. I can introduce you to many people I know very well in the DC who just do not think of themselves as Buddhist, and if you ask them, they will deny they are Buddhists. If you tell them are taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, they will say, no, I am taking refuge in the Guru, deva and dakini.

Trust me, for years I told all these people they were Buddhists even if they did not care to lable themselves such. Then I understood, and now I accept their point of view. Also I don't feel that need anymore to belong to the religion called "buddhism". And I am pretty expert in "Buddhism", ask anyone -- that is why I have an Acarya degree from the Sakya school, and so on.

I am sorry, but you misunderstood me: It is not me who say that they are Buddhists or that I am trying to convince them that they are Buddhists! They freely consider themselves as Buddhists!
You cannot deny that and you cannot say NO to some people's view about themselves! Isn't it?
The people you know, are obviously not the people I know...
That's why I said before:
What students do does not prove anything about Dzogchen and ChNN Rinpoche himself! Quite the contrary, I would say...
The relative truth is not the same for everybody, and it never abides in the extremes of total acceptance or total denial.

[Malcolm]

They freely consider themselves as Buddhists! [/b]

Sure, there are also many people in the DC who consider themselves Buddhists. I know this, obviously, since I used to be one of them.

There are people who consider themselves buddhists and christians, etc. No problem for me at all.

And there are a lot of people in teh DC who do not consider themselves Buddhist at all.

[Dronma]

But I did not give up my former POV based on ChNN's say so. I gave it up because I personally understood that all this stuff which is so important to you, dronma, magnus, adamantine, greg and kalsang yungdrung was completely extraneous to the teachings.

M

Well, Malcolm, you are obviously projecting to others your past conviction about what you think it is important for me (and others, but I'll speak only about myself).
My friend, you don't know me at all. You cannot even read carefully and understand what I am writing here most of the times.
I understand that you are going through a phase of inner transformation, while you are giving up your old bigoted views about being a dedicated "Buddhist".
I think that you are still under the impulse of your new discovery, and you have reached the opposite edge, exactly like the movement of a pendulum indicator.
May you find your golden mean and balance soon. In the meanwhile, please do not distort my writings here. Thank you!

[username]

Rinpoche explained these a couple of days ago. There are two key words. He siad if someone comes to me and is interested in Dzogchen but has another religion that means he has capacity for Dzogchen so I WELCOME them and give Dzogchen teachings. Then they can START like this. Also we know rinpoche says after DI which is beyond 9 yanas, for practice the MINIMUM is ATI Guru Yoga in it's various forms or just the short form. Meanwhile as a BEGINNER you can still have ecelectic beliefs like some here are Hindus or worship Jehova or God the father refusing emptiness. Or you can carry on doing your previous hippy dippy yoga of Jesus Rinpoche or Scientology of aliens or whatever. It is really the same with all rinpoches. They do not quizz beginners saying now we need an inquisition to purify you of your current contradictory beliefs. To me most Tibetan lamas' large teachings' audiences are like the cafe in the desert in Star Wars of various types of aliens, all sorts of people.

People take their time. Some never fully abandon contradictory beliefs to Dzogchen and/or buddhism as we see in all subforums here. So ChNNR is the same as all dharma teachers saying ALL ARE WELCOME. But you can't complete the four visions if for example you dismiss emptiness in favor if a bearded god and his son or other stories as inherently existing. You just won't get to those advanced results. Also nevermind great Tibetan masters in history, even Padma and Tsogyal meditated for decades despite being nirmanakays so chances are if you want any serious advanced Dzogche results you have to do one or more of the upper 3 yogas as well as serious retreat time of occasional week or more every year or at least every few years at the very least in Yangti as rinpoche has said for beginning on the advanced stages and sameif wanting the four visions from Longde or Mengagde.

Also Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and others sometimes gave DI to a mix of people, buddhist and non, too when they judged capacity or karmic connection being present. But all these are just the start or at least making a connection for future. If however you are serious then you have to do one or more of the upper 3 yogas and ChNNR says the minimum for beginners or those not serious about advanced results is the short ATI guru yoga as well as being non distracted (present or even better in instant presence) and integrated as much as possible in daily life and meditation.

So considering my long points above I don't see why this mega argument on DZOGCHEN & BUDDHISM is dragging on. No two people are having the same positions here and most speaking for Rinpoche in error are contradicting their earlier positions.

Also on Dzogchen and Buddhism: ChNNR says keep your Buddhist (label, true) and Dzogchenpa (also label!) secret as like the lynching mobs of intimidator Chinese Cultural revolutionaries who included samaya breaker informants who switched sides, the same could happen anywhere again as we do not know so do not advertise your face as Buddhist or Dzogchenpa which is not good anyway. (BTW Prophecies say Dzogchen will spread like wildfire in the degenrate era globally but for a short time only before being snuffed out in the descent into final long deep Kaliyuga's last phase before the next buddah Maitreya who starts the stages of wheel turning giving his protection for Dzogchen to reappear which in Mitreya's particular cycle eventually will after his parinirvana just like Shakyamuni). Rinpoche also often says how his students do not listen. Once he said I explained do not go on the beach and "show off (his usual word)" to the public look I am Dzogchenpa doing Yantra yoga, then we went to the beach on another day in the same retreat and in front of public one person started showing off Yantra yoga. He says the same for not doing mudras in restaurants. Or shrines in your homes, should be hidden or just a white Ah calligraphy. Also he says certain things we do wrong, like premature thogal or attachment to visions or showing off etc (the usual), can (not always though) block that capacity in this lifetime. Once he said if you do all this for showing off your face to the world that look I am yogi or Dzogchenpa, don't expect results, you already got your result of merit for self advertisement. That is what he says to people who shout to the world: "I am a Dzogchnepa and I am OK - I sleep all night and distracted all day".

Don't worry about that vase.

[Dechen Norbu]

Rinpoche explained these a couple of days ago. There are two key words. He siad if someone comes to me and is interested in Dzogchen but has another religion that means he has capacity for Dzogchen so I WELCOME them and give Dzogchen teachings. Then they can START like this. Also we know rinpoche says after DI which is beyond 9 yanas, for practice the MINIMUM is ATI Guru Yoga in it's various forms or just the short form. Meanwhile as a BEGINNER you can still have ecelectic beliefs like some here are Hindus or worship Jehova or God the father refusing emptiness. Or you can carry on doing your previous hippy dippy yoga of Jesus Rinpoche or Scientology of aliens or whatever. It is really the same with all rinpoches. They do not quizz beginners saying now we need an inquisition to purify you of your current contradictory beliefs. To me most Tibetan lamas' large teachings' audiences are like the cafe in the desert in Star Wars of various types of aliens, all sorts of people.

Yes, that's pretty much what I think too, with one exception. Not all Rinpoches will give you DI if you are not a Buddhist. Some not even if you are a Buddhist and haven't completed the preliminaries.

People take their time. Some never fully abandon contradictory beliefs to Dzogchen and/or buddhism as we see in all subforums here. So ChNNR is the same as all dharma teachers saying ALL ARE WELCOME. But you can't complete the four visions if for example you dismiss emptiness in favor if a bearded god and his son or other stories as inherently existing. You just won't get to those advanced results. Also nevermind great Tibetan masters in history, even Padma and Tsogyal meditated for decades despite being nirmanakays so chances are if you want any serious advanced Dzogche results you have to do one or more of the upper 3 yogas as well as serious retreat time of occasional week or more every year or at least every few years at the very least in Yangti as rinpoche has said for beginning on the advanced stages and sameif wanting the four visions from Longde or Mengagde.

Well, I think you are painting Christians in a very simplistic manner. But in general terms I agree with what you are saying. This doesn't mean I can trace it all to ChNN teachings, but I personally agree.

Also Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and others sometimes gave DI to a mix of people, buddhist and non, too when they judged capacity or karmic connection being present. But all these are just the start or at least making a connection for future. If however you are serious then you have to do one or more of the upper 3 yogas and ChNNR says the minimum for beginners or those not serious about advanced results is the short ATI guru yoga as well as being non distracted (present or even better in instant presence) and integrated as much as possible in daily life and meditation.

Recognizing the natural state is the start, even if for a very brief moment. Not DI by itself, but recognizing our real nature and move on from there. If you receive DI and don't recognize the natural state, it won't be much helpful. Semde methods are very good for such effect.

So considering my long points above I don't see why this mega argument on DZOGCHEN & BUDDHISM is dragging on. No two people are having the same positions here and most speaking for Rinpoche in error are contradicting their earlier positions.

Can you elaborate? Because I don't see where are the contradictions. Are you saying Malcom is in contradiction with his earlier position from some time ago? He said himself that he changed his mind and explained why. I also thought one had to be a Buddhist to practice Dzogchen. Now I find it helpful as long as it doesn't get in the way of Dzogchen practice.

Also on Dzogchen and Buddhism: ChNNR says keep your Buddhist (label, true) and Dzogchenpa (also label!) secret as like the lynching mobs of intimidator Chinese Cultural revolutionaries who included samaya breaker informants who switched sides, the same could happen anywhere again as we do not know so do not advertise your face as Buddhist or Dzogchenpa which is not good anyway.

That's generally a good advice. But you see, if we were to keep it that secret, then it would be better to shut down this board no?
In my life outside of here, very few close people know I'm a Buddhist and only my wife knows I practice Dzogchen. Seems secret enough for you?

(BTW Prophecies say Dzogchen will spread like wildfire in the degenrate era globally but for a short time only before being snuffed out in the descent into final long deep Kaliyuga's last phase before the next buddah Maitreya who starts the stages of wheel turning giving his protection for Dzogchen to reappear which in Mitreya's particular cycle eventually will after his parinirvana just like Shakyamuni).

I'm not sure, but I thought Malcom once said Dzogchen wouldn't vanish. I don't know much about prophecies though.

Rinpoche also often says how his students do not listen.

Unfortunately. With so many retreats, webcasts, books and booklets this is really awkward.

Once he said I explained do not go on the beach and "show off (his usual word)" to the public look I am Dzogchenpa doing Yantra yoga, then we went to the beach on another day in the same retreat and in front of public one person started showing off Yantra yoga. He says the same for not doing mudras in restaurants. Or shrines in your homes, should be hidden or just a white Ah calligraphy. Also he says certain things we do wrong, like premature thogal or attachment to visions or showing off etc (the usual), can (not always though) block that capacity in this lifetime. Once he said if you do all this for showing off your face to the world that look I am yogi or Dzogchenpa, don't expect results, you already got your result of merit for self advertisement. That is what he says to people who shout to the world: "I am a Dzogchnepa and I am OK - I sleep all night and distracted all day".

Very wise advice and I for one am very happy that you know it so well. No irony here or anything of the sort. It's very nice to read someone actually saying what ChNN says. ChNN is not the only one giving it. I think it is pretty widespread. Even HHDL addressed this issue. Yet, when you go to some Dharma centers more often than not you find parades of "tibetanized" westerners, dressing funny, acting funny, eating funny, talking funny... and in the end it is not funny at all.

Don't worry about that vase.

What vase?
The one you're about to break.

Or something, right? If I remember right, it's from the movie The Matrix when Neo was speaking with the Oracle.
A bit cheesy, but gave me a good laugh still.

[username]

Hi DN,

Yes many lamas do not give DI. There are various reasons, and some just can't. Most do not have the level of realization of great masters or many tertons who actually did and do give DI. Also I did not say the DI process is automatic realization of the state. Dont know how you got that. Like the bandit who told the lama in transit after years of study begging him to take all except his folios: "what is the difference between you and this animal who carries them if you didn't realize their point?"

As to your main point, it is a little complex but rinpoche explained this many times. He says advertising for Dzogchen teaching is good as is a genuine master teaching Dzogchen correctly and faultlessly to as mny people as possible. When I teach Dzogchen in a big city like New York, how many people attend? One thousand? Two thousand? Not even that. Where there is maybe ten million. Why? Because many people but not all, who have capacity or karmic connection can find out and come and make connection or maybe receive DI or even maybe some realize the knowledge that is their real nature. So we want those. Quality.

So everything in it's place.

No I meant Garab Dorje's

All the best.

[Dechen Norbu]

Hi DN,

Yes many lamas do not give DI. There are various reasons, and some just can't. Most do not have the level of realization of great masters or many tertons who actually did and do give DI. Also I did not say the DI process is automatic realization of the state. Dont know how you got that. Like the bandit who told the lama in transit after years of study begging him to take all except his folios: "what is the difference between you and this animal who carries them if you didn't realize their point?"

As to your main point, it is a little complex but rinpoche explained this many times. He says advertising for Dzogchen teaching is good as is a genuine master teaching Dzogchen correctly and faultlessly to as mny people as possible. When I teach Dzogchen in a big city like New York, how many people attend? One thousand? Two thousand? Not even that. Where there is maybe ten million. Why? Because many people, but not all, who have capacity or karmic connection can find out and come and make connection or maybe receive DI or even maybe some realize the knowledge that is their real nature.

So everything in it's place.

All the best.

Yes, you are right you didn't say it. I was adding, not contraposing. Sorry if it looked that way.
About the rest, no disagreements here.

Best wishes.