What is the relationship of "The Witness" to Enlightenment?

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Re: What is the relationship of "The Witness" to Enlightenment?

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:10 am

catmoon wrote:I don't think D.O. would prohibit awareness of consciousness, because the first six steps are cycling constantly at high speed. I you miss on the current pass you can always catch it the next cycle a split second later. At worst, one would experience a small time lag between a "consciousness event" and becoming aware of that event.



So to use a light metaphor, more of a kaliedescope than say, sequential led's?
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

~Werner Erhard
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Re: What is the relationship of "The Witness" to Enlightenment?

Postby Astus » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:50 am

Regarding the Chan view I'd like to mention that the "witness" is a passive, detached, dualistic position (sounds like that to me), while the nature of mind is void and active besides being aware.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: What is the relationship of "The Witness" to Enlightenment?

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:38 pm

Astus wrote:(sounds like that to me)


Is that based on opinion or experience :)
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Re: What is the relationship of "The Witness" to Enlightenment?

Postby Astus » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:09 pm

It depends on what You mean by "witness". As for me, it is as I said.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: What is the relationship of "The Witness" to Enlightenment?

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:18 pm

Astus wrote:Regarding the Chan view I'd like to mention that the "witness" is a passive, detached, dualistic position (sounds like that to me)


My question was specifically about the above phrase. Is the above based on your actual experience of chan practice or is it opinion?
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

~Werner Erhard
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Re: What is the relationship of "The Witness" to Enlightenment?

Postby Astus » Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:15 pm

The idea of a "witness" is not Chan, if anything at all, a mistake of Chan. As Foyan Qingyuan said,

People nowadays mostly take the immediate mirroring awareness to be the ultimate principle. This is why Xuansha said to people, "Tell me, does it still exist in remote uninhabited places deep in the mountains?" (Instant Zen, p. 107)

I should have put a hyphen or a comma there to make it clearer.

And to answer your question: it is both something I tried to use as a practice and also something I have an opinion about.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Location: Budapest

Re: What is the relationship of "The Witness" to Enlightenment?

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:36 pm

Astus wrote:The idea of a "witness" is not Chan, if anything at all, a mistake of Chan. As Foyan Qingyuan said,

People nowadays mostly take the immediate mirroring awareness to be the ultimate principle. This is why Xuansha said to people, "Tell me, does it still exist in remote uninhabited places deep in the mountains?" (Instant Zen, p. 107)

I should have put a hyphen or a comma there to make it clearer.

And to answer your question: it is both something I tried to use as a practice and also something I have an opinion about.


Ok thank you :)
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

~Werner Erhard
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