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the great rebirth debate - Page 100 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Cloud
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Cloud » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:55 pm

Enlightenment is not about not experiencing; in that sense dukkha may have been used to indicate something unpleasant, but it goes on to say he was unperturbed (and that's the part that keeps being left out; it's one full explanation, don't stop at "dukkha"). This is what enlightenment is; all things are experienced, but the 'one who knows', that awareness, does not grasp at the experience; pleasure and pain are the same, gain and loss, praise and blame... none of these are clung to. That is what it's all about, and it seems easy to get stuck on the words; this says this, that says that. All experiences are seen as transient, not self and bound with dukkha; they are not grasped at, not clung to, only experienced.

The Buddha is credited with saying many times it is only through not understanding, not fully penetrating these Four Noble Truths that one remains bound in Samsara. Does it make sense that you don't understand dukkha? Yes. Will you? Yes. As I'm not Ajahn Cloud, I may not be the one to explain it. In fact no one may. Where real understanding arises is within your very mind; others can only help create supporting conditions for that understanding to arise, because for you they are all sights, sounds, tastes, touch, smells and thoughts.

The Tipitaka is really really large, so I would give advice to study the Four Noble Truths and all related commentary exclusively until this understanding arises, and don't leave out practice! Practice is where this conceptual understanding, once right view, will develop further. Take this advice as you will, remembering that I'm not a teacher; life is your teacher, your mind the subject to study.

Also, you don't have to just study the Tipitaka and its commentaries. There have been many books written by those who have understood that present the teachings in ways that may be easier to understand. The focus should not be on the words, but the meaning, and the meaning of the Tipitaka may be difficult because of its size; we try to delineate and read parts, and so may not get the "whole", even though the whole is just expounding upon these Four Noble Truths. Each mind is at a different state of conditioning so to speak, and understanding may arise at any time from even one sentence or one word; find the teachings wherever they may be, not just in the Tipitaka.
Last edited by Cloud on Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:01 pm


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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:13 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:15 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:20 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:21 pm

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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:26 pm

The comical thing is Alex, one doesn't understand Dukkha until one reaches stream entry. So all this talk about Dukkha is really a misappropriation of effort, do you not think?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Cloud
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Cloud » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:29 pm

So all this talking wouldn't help unless it gave rise to stream-entry? Well, since tilt wants it back on subject anyway, no more dukkha-talk. :)

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:29 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:30 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:35 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Anicca
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Anicca » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:37 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:39 pm

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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:44 pm

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:46 pm

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:48 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:53 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Anicca
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Anicca » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:54 pm


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BlackBird
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Location: New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:54 pm

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Alex123
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:56 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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