Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Ervin
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Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by Ervin »

From what I remember there are five precepts in Buddhism and they are no lying, no killing, no stiling, no sexual misconduct and no drugs or alcohol.

Now, would you say that coffee is an intoxicant that we need to stay away from? And how about psych drugs like antidepressants for instance?

I am seriously trying to quit coffee. I noticed some good benefits in the past when I quit coffee. I am finding it hard at times because of the addiction that I created by drinking coffee but I am determined to quit.

What do the rest of you have to say on this subject?

Thanks
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catmoon
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by catmoon »

Well, if coffee goes, then tea, cocoa, cola drinks and chocolate would have to go with it.
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DGA
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by DGA »

Cola is poison, that's for sure.

But if coffee's off the reservation, I'm not sure I can cope. :coffee:
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Astus
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by Astus »

The meaning of the fifth lay precept is to avoid a state of mind where one could easily break the first four precepts. Drinking alcohol and consuming drugs have no karmic effect in and of themselves as far as the ten good/bad deeds are concerned. Coffee, tea, different medicines, etc. don't make it any more likely to break the first four precepts, thus using or avoiding them is irrelevant to Buddhist ethics.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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retrofuturist
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ervin,

Whatever the precept actually is (and I say that because there are different versions of it in different lineages), my suggestion would be to take it as it is written.

Maitri,
Retro. :)
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Caz
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by Caz »

Generally its Alcohol and mind altering Drugs that are prohibited with exception for medical cases. Coffee and Tea don't Lessen your mindfulness In fact they are very helpful for a early morning Puja :)
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by Huseng »

"No alcohol" just refers to alcohol. It doesn't mean "intoxicants" though many interpret it to mean that without knowing the original context for the prohibition.

If you're interested in why alcohol was banned I wrote a little article on it using the Vinaya:

https://sites.google.com/site/dharmadep ... rohibition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Nemo
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by Nemo »

Last time I checked we were not Mormons.

If you have developed some negative health effects you have my sympathy. I did not like giving up coffee. I was surprised that after about 5 years when I had recovered from my injuries I could drink it again.
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Konchog1
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by Konchog1 »

Ervin wrote:Now, would you say that coffee is an intoxicant that we need to stay away from?
IIRC some Buddhists believe so, but the majority opinion says its fine. Of course, if you're addicted to something you should quit.

Ervin wrote:And how about psych drugs like antidepressants for instance?
Medicines don't count among intoxicants. However, I personally believe anything that changes the mind should be avoided unless it's required (e.g. suicidal desires).
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KathyLauren
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by KathyLauren »

I agree with the responses that say that the precept does not cover coffee. So, it is not required that you give it up.

On the other hand, if you perceive that addiction to caffeine is causing you problems, then I would recommend giving it up, precept or no precept. In the Mahayana tradition, you should consider yourself a bodhisattva. Anything that harms yourself is harming a bodhisattva.

Good luck!

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DharmaKitty
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by DharmaKitty »

I personally like the text (translation/paraphrase) that reads :

...to refrain from intoxicants or any abuse of the senses which are the occasion for carelessness...

It is in the carelessness caused by these intoxicants that we harm others (and ourselves) and as such I prefer to refrain from them.

Coffee, for me, is not on that list! In fact, if I don't have my morning dose(s), I may cause much harm to those around me! :smile:
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Josef
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by Josef »

"Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?"

No.

Good night.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Wesley1982
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by Wesley1982 »

Last I checked - drinking coffee does not have moral repercussions.
Last edited by Wesley1982 on Thu May 24, 2012 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Paul
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by Paul »

I have heard at least one high rinpoche explicitly state no. Caffeine use in Buddhist history goes back a long way.
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greentreee
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Re: Does the precept of no drugs or alcohol mean no coffee?

Post by greentreee »

:rules:


:zzz: :coffee: :techproblem: :tantrum:

:cheers: :broke: :crying:

i'd be very curious to see what list there is of "acceptable medications" for respective ailments that are permitted. i'm know how caffein works, and i've questioned what the O/P is asking, years ago. i can only imagine the uproar if dharma centers all over the world switched to decaf! quitting coffee is hard, but not as hard as cigarettes, good luck ervin!
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