Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby kirtu » Thu May 24, 2012 5:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:However Malcolm told us that his ngakpa teacher did indeed perform a blood sacrifice of real animals as part of a weather controlling ritual of some sort.


I never said that.

They went to an abbatoir and procured the head of a bull that had been slaughtered.


I apologize for the misunderstanding.

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 24, 2012 5:51 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Horses are slaughtered everyday in USA and used for petfood. I can't speak to how things may have been done in old Tibet, but clearly the meat-for-food industry was questionable using muslims as butchers, etc. as a way to distance themselves from the killing, even as they were placing the orders. However, I don't think it would have been too unusual to find dead animals in old Tibet either.. harsh climate. . especially at a time when weather-control would have been deemed necessary. I assume Malcolm can clear all this up, having been close with Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje.


Mostly this phenomena of using muslim butchers is a Lhasa custom. In other regions, where Muslims were not to be found, Tibetans had to kill their own food animals. It is a pratical necessity.

Actually, it is just a fact of samsara -- animal husbandry and salughter provides the raw resources for virtually all organic farming. This is one reason why I think the vegans are nuts. They are not living in the real world.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby conebeckham » Thu May 24, 2012 6:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:The "touched my genitals" thing vis a vis a Yamantaka empowerment? WTF?


Come on, admit it -- you're just jealous!!!

M


:smile:
This is probably totally inappropriate, but I have this vision of CM bestowing the secret empowerment-offering the nectar, as it were. Oh, nevermind.

Seriously, though.....it's going to get ugly when the Major Media hits the story. Batten down the hatches, you Tantrikas!!! :spy:
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Nemo » Thu May 24, 2012 6:35 pm

It is not Kali's fault these people are crazy. At worst I can say she makes your crazy worse and very visible in the world. Perhaps we should be thanking her for exposing this. She can be a harsh task master, but considerably more compassionate than Tsui Marpo as an example.

She is not a Goddess of punishment but She is a Goddess who tests her devotees. She is directly responsible for my first decent retreat with my Root Guru. I was with a Hindu Tantric Kali worshiper at the time. She prayed for her to bless me and all hell broke loose, as it usually does. Lost my job though gossip and the revenge of an old lover. Was fired at a strategy meeting at a hotel in the middle of nowhere(250Km from our city) that just happened to be 30Km from my Root Guru who I had only met one other time. When I returned a month later some of my work records had been destroyed and the ex had tried to get legal proceedings against me. Turned out she was crazy and my workplace apologized. Because she was in the executive I was given a juicy severance package to keep quiet and received unemployment insurance. So I went back on retreat. It was very surreal. When worshiping Kail strange things that in retrospect needed to happen manifest.

You will also be tested. Here is a good example. I was eating pizza and contemplating Kali. Her tongue that drinks all emotionality, her scissors that cut all attachments, the tip of her single toe on Shiva's heart, her blue black radiance. Then three beautiful Persian girls tried to take me home with them to have sex. All three were 16 years old. I refused, but one was dragging me by the arm and begging as I was trying to leave. If you had ever met me you would know how unlikely this situation was. I do not like to think of what would have befallen me if I had said yes. If Kali is demanding blood you failed her in some way. You must be resolute in your moral behavior because you will get immediate results of whatever Karma you manifest. Anything from winning lotto to seeing someone murdered by an angry woman with a shovel right in front of you.

Upon reflection this fiasco is really not out of character for Her. The hidden crazy is now wide open to the world.
Last edited by Nemo on Thu May 24, 2012 7:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Adamantine » Thu May 24, 2012 6:49 pm

Another comment of interest on that Update article's comment thread, from someone who appears to be a DM board member:


kelly rigpa · 12 minutes ago
My qualm was that even well-before the retreat started Christie had become a self-inflated and imperious egomaniac, abandoning all pretext of intellectual honesty, and parlaying her 'arya-picked' guru-status to fill-out any of the gaps left in the absence of honest debate.
In other words, she became the deadly-serious (humorless) center of her own brand of some bizarre and unrecognizable 'religion.'
Another student here felt that GMR had abandoned his leadership responsibility towards the configuration of the retreat, and in the wake of his and Christie's break-up, couldn't get away from the day-to-day responsibility of DM fast enough.... That said, GMR has been a tireless fund-raiser for the retreatants, and a man true to his promise to see that the needs of the retreatants are fully funded. I have to honor this level of commitment. The punch-list the retreatants have to fill-out for their food and sundry requests is as unstinting and as commodious as some 5-star resorts might contain. I would still give GMR tremendous credit for that fact alone.
Was GMR merely giving Christie all the rope necessary to hang herself with? You must inquire elsewhere than here perhaps for an answer to that question!
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Adamantine » Thu May 24, 2012 9:17 pm

Nemo wrote:It is not Kali's fault these people are crazy. At worst I can say she makes your crazy worse and very visible in the world. Perhaps we should be thanking her for exposing this. She can be a harsh task master, but considerably more compassionate than Tsui Marpo as an example.

She is not a Goddess of punishment but She is a Goddess who tests her devotees. She is directly responsible for my first decent retreat with my Root Guru. I was with a Hindu Tantric Kali worshiper at the time. She prayed for her to bless me and all hell broke loose, as it usually does. Lost my job though gossip and the revenge of an old lover. Was fired at a strategy meeting at a hotel in the middle of nowhere(250Km from our city) that just happened to be 30Km from my Root Guru who I had only met one other time. When I returned a month later some of my work records had been destroyed and the ex had tried to get legal proceedings against me. Turned out she was crazy and my workplace apologized. Because she was in the executive I was given a juicy severance package to keep quiet and received unemployment insurance. So I went back on retreat. It was very surreal. When worshiping Kail strange things that in retrospect needed to happen manifest.

You will also be tested. Here is a good example. I was eating pizza and contemplating Kali. Her tongue that drinks all emotionality, her scissors that cut all attachments, the tip of her single toe on Shiva's heart, her blue black radiance. Then three beautiful Persian girls tried to take me home with them to have sex. All three were 16 years old. I refused, but one was dragging me by the arm and begging as I was trying to leave. If you had ever met me you would know how unlikely this situation was. I do not like to think of what would have befallen me if I had said yes. If Kali is demanding blood you failed her in some way. You must be resolute in your moral behavior because you will get immediate results of whatever Karma you manifest. Anything from winning lotto to seeing someone murdered by an angry woman with a shovel right in front of you.
.


Interesting stories.

The hidden crazy is now wide open to the world


Indeed.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Knotty Veneer » Fri May 25, 2012 8:55 pm

conebeckham wrote:Seriously, though.....it's going to get ugly when the Major Media hits the story. Batten down the hatches, you Tantrikas!!! :spy:


I see the Huffington Post is carrying the story now. Can't imagine the New York Times, Washington Post etc. can be far behind:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/derek-ros ... 36868.html
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby kirtu » Fri May 25, 2012 11:58 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Seriously, though.....it's going to get ugly when the Major Media hits the story. Batten down the hatches, you Tantrikas!!! :spy:


I see the Huffington Post is carrying the story now. Can't imagine the New York Times, Washington Post etc. can be far behind:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/derek-ros ... 36868.html


This will be very bad. Worse than the fallout from other scandals like the Shambhalla disaster. Roach was widely seen as a real geshe in the west before he went off the rails and he taught widely (albeit mostly sutra) in TB's centers of various kinds prior to 2000.

Westerners should likely give up their mahasiddha fantasies and focus on morality, lovingkindness, compassion, Buddhamind and purity.

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Adamantine » Sat May 26, 2012 12:58 am

kirtu wrote:Westerners should likely give up their mahasiddha fantasies and focus on morality, lovingkindness, compassion, Buddhamind and purity.

Kirt


I am working on it Kirt!
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby honestdboy » Sun May 27, 2012 1:36 am

Nemo wrote:It is not Kali's fault these people are crazy. At worst I can say she makes your crazy worse and very visible in the world. Perhaps we should be thanking her for exposing this. She can be a harsh task master, but considerably more compassionate than Tsui Marpo as an example.

She is not a Goddess of punishment but She is a Goddess who tests her devotees. She is directly responsible for my first decent retreat with my Root Guru. I was with a Hindu Tantric Kali worshiper at the time. She prayed for her to bless me and all hell broke loose, as it usually does. Lost my job though gossip and the revenge of an old lover. Was fired at a strategy meeting at a hotel in the middle of nowhere(250Km from our city) that just happened to be 30Km from my Root Guru who I had only met one other time. When I returned a month later some of my work records had been destroyed and the ex had tried to get legal proceedings against me. Turned out she was crazy and my workplace apologized. Because she was in the executive I was given a juicy severance package to keep quiet and received unemployment insurance. So I went back on retreat. It was very surreal. When worshiping Kail strange things that in retrospect needed to happen manifest.

You will also be tested. Here is a good example. I was eating pizza and contemplating Kali. Her tongue that drinks all emotionality, her scissors that cut all attachments, the tip of her single toe on Shiva's heart, her blue black radiance. Then three beautiful Persian girls tried to take me home with them to have sex. All three were 16 years old. I refused, but one was dragging me by the arm and begging as I was trying to leave. If you had ever met me you would know how unlikely this situation was. I do not like to think of what would have befallen me if I had said yes. If Kali is demanding blood you failed her in some way. You must be resolute in your moral behavior because you will get immediate results of whatever Karma you manifest. Anything from winning lotto to seeing someone murdered by an angry woman with a shovel right in front of you.

Upon reflection this fiasco is really not out of character for Her. The hidden crazy is now wide open to the world.



This sounds correct to me. They were dabbling in advanced things (Kali, martial arts with weapons, doing retreats in caves in a desert) they knew little about. My hope is that the group goes back to focusing on Buddhism and that the Geshe continues wearing a suit instead of robes. He looks so much better in a suit anyway. :namaste:
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sun May 27, 2012 12:59 pm

Just when you thought there was an end to Michael Roach's talents:

Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Nemo » Sun May 27, 2012 2:21 pm

I hate to admit it but he seems like an interesting guy who went crazy. He had the Karma to make millions with almost no work on his part, is very intelligent and talented. His merit is exceptional.

If only he had a good Lama who would beat the crap out of him when he tried to be a monk and screw chicks at the same time he could have gone somewhere. Is this what happens when you let a Gyalpo into your life? I actually feel sorry for him. He must feel very guilty for all the rope he gave Christie. Does it look like he is dealing appropriately with with causing the death of one friend and the mental breakdown of another?
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby heart » Sun May 27, 2012 9:04 pm

Nemo wrote:I hate to admit it but he seems like an interesting guy who went crazy. He had the Karma to make millions with almost no work on his part, is very intelligent and talented. His merit is exceptional.

If only he had a good Lama who would beat the crap out of him when he tried to be a monk and screw chicks at the same time he could have gone somewhere. Is this what happens when you let a Gyalpo into your life? I actually feel sorry for him. He must feel very guilty for all the rope he gave Christie. Does it look like he is dealing appropriately with with causing the death of one friend and the mental breakdown of another?


Nemo, you are really something. :smile:

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sun May 27, 2012 9:10 pm

Nemo wrote:I hate to admit it but he seems like an interesting guy who went crazy. He had the Karma to make millions with almost no work on his part, is very intelligent and talented. His merit is exceptional.


While he had the karma to make lots of money - I don't know if I'd call it merit. Getting lots of money can be a serious obstacle if you don't have wisdom to use it properly. Money is not necessarily beneficial. Real wealth is having no desire for more than you can use.

Nemo wrote:If only he had a good Lama who would beat the crap out of him when he tried to be a monk and screw chicks at the same time he could have gone somewhere. Is this what happens when you let a Gyalpo into your life? I actually feel sorry for him. He must feel very guilty for all the rope he gave Christie. Does it look like he is dealing appropriately with with causing the death of one friend and the mental breakdown of another?


I would hope it is causing him to have a rethink about where his life is going. However, he seems so far off beam from where he started and he has introduced so many things into his spiritual practice, it could be very difficult for him and his students to find their way back now.

You know, I also feel sorry for the serious long-term ordained Western Sangha. You know the ones you never hear about on these boards. The people who do not start their own groups but spend their time in retreat, or studying hard or just serving their teacher and their communities. A schmuck like Roach can get everybody a bad name.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby honestdboy » Mon May 28, 2012 1:03 am

I also hopes Geshe Roach reflects on what wrong turns he has taken and gets back on the right road. I think he is much more popular than most people on this board realize. He tours all over Asia. If he wants to add something to the Buddhist teachings, something simple and relaxing like yoga (which he already does include), qi gong, or zen walking meditation practice seems much more appropriate than mixing Buddhism with Hinduism. I remember liking the walking meditation during Shambhala training; it's good to stretch the legs after sitting a long time! :namaste:
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Wayfarer » Mon May 28, 2012 3:05 am

Also covered in Tricycle. The linked post in the Elephant Journal is a very detailed analysis of the situation and raises some tough questions.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 28, 2012 8:44 am

Why everybody keeps calling it a Buddhist community is well beyond me! I mean the "secular" newspapers who have no idea, I can understand, but now even Tricycle? Mind you, from what I hear about Tricycle... Sigh...
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby honestdboy » Tue May 29, 2012 12:48 am

The "Neo-Buddhist" label seems OK to me. Buddhism has gone through many changes as it moves from country to country. It mixes well with some things but not others. The Nepalis and Japanese don't think it is strange to mix their Buddhism with other religions (Shinto, Hinduism). I've heard many Japanese say they are born Shinto, married Christian, and die Buddhist. :yinyang:
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby kirtu » Tue May 29, 2012 1:16 am

honestdboy wrote:The "Neo-Buddhist" label seems OK to me.


Neo-Buddhist is a label that the Indian press applies to Western Buddhists and to Ambedkar Buddhists. It's a condescending term that means fake Buddhist.

I've heard many Japanese say they are born Shinto, married Christian, and die Buddhist. :yinyang:


The Japanese as a society are post-spiritual. As for individuals ....

I'm disappointed with the Tricycle coverage. The blog postings from people associated with the Roach cult or with people who have been associated with them are even worse.

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby honestdboy » Tue May 29, 2012 2:54 am

Tricycle does its best not to rock the boat. I think that's good and bad--probably good for their sales (keeping their boat afloat). It is good that they give links to articles on several sides of the story. :meditate:
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