Experiences

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

Want to discuss here the experience of illusion and the experience of Nature as pure.

- Some say the experience of illusion is correct in case of the Visions of Nature.
- Some say the experiences of Nature are pure.

- Are both assumptions correct?


Mutsog Marro
KY

[alpha]

I would be curious to know if there is such thing as the "experience of illusion" and how that feels? Isn't it that an "experience" of any kind is something temporary,illusory in itself and it happens within the field of rigpa and the more powerful an experience(illusion) is the more obvious will be the knowledge ?

I have also a question to those more experienced.
Can one arrive at knowledege of one's state by simply inferring illusion?

[oldbob]

Tashi delek,

Want to discuss here the experience of illusion and the experience of Nature as pure.

- Some say the experience of illusion is correct in case of the Visions of Nature.
- Some say the experiences of Nature are pure.

- Are both assumptions correct?


Mutsog Marro
KY

-------------------------------------------
Dear all and All,

Dear Mutsog Marro,

I suspect that English is not your native language so what you may mean by Nature, illusion, pure, and experience may be different from my usage of the same words. Please forgive me if I don't understand what you mean - I am an old guy.

In English, Nature is a word used to describe the natural world. The 10,000 shades of green, the pond and pine tree, that I see out of my window are examples of Nature. What today is green will next winter be white, and so on. If I want it to stay green or white, this is an illusion. It is not going to stay the same. If I am wise, I understand this. Also, a rope by the side of the road, seen as a snake, at dusk, and making me frightened, is an illusion. So is a real snake, when seen as a rope. If I am wise, I understand this.

If by nature you are, referring to "natural mind," as is used in Dzogchen, then it is useful to consider that everything is illusion (a reflection, a dream, a water bubble, a sky flower, etc) and that whatever appears is the show or display of Rigpa, instant presence. If you take this further, then you will find that, from the viewpoint of instant presence, that all experiences are also pure. This is not found through the use of words, but from direct experience.

So I think that, if I understand your meaning correctly, both of your assumptions are correct.

What this means to me is that if something appears, if I have visions, while in my "natural mind," then I take this appearance as illusion, but I do not name it or call it as such. I just know this to be true. Normally we speak of visions as occurring during the practices of sky gazing, Togal or dark retreat. Then we need to have the confidence that whatever appears, or doesn't appear, is just fine. From the point of view of instant presence, appearances are ALL the same: grist for the rigpa mill: the famous "one taste" of appearances. What appears, arises, and dissolves as it arises: the snake untying its own knot. Nothing to get hung about, as the Beatles sang. Good, or beautiful visions, cannot help instant presence, and bad, or ugly, visions cannot hurt instant presence.

If you "get the benefit" of these practices, then all experience, waking state, dream state, and gaps of unconsciousness, are all "understood" to be the same taste and you neither seek nor fear anything.

Ah

Rest in this luminous open vastness for a moment ---

This is your natural state and the nature of Nature.

I sincerely hope this helps someone. Maybe if English is not your native language, you can go to a good translator, who hopefully also speaks Dzogchen, and get a precise translation.

Long life, in good health, with success in all things, to the Dzogchen Masters (and everybody else too).

ob

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

Want to discuss here the experience of illusion and the experience of Nature as pure.

- Some say the experience of illusion is correct in case of the Visions of Nature.
- Some say the experiences of Nature are pure.

- Are both assumptions correct?


Mutsog Marro
KY

-------------------------------------------
Tashi delek,

Many thanks for your replies.


At first must i make an excuse for my bad English or double Dutch English.

But nevertheless my bad English did you understood on a perfect way my assumption.

Will put some remarks / questions between your lines in blue.


In advance thanks for your attention, experienced Bob.

Mutsog Marro
KY


Dear all and All,

Dear Mutsog Marro,

I suspect that English is not your native language so what you may mean by Nature, illusion, pure, and experience may be different from my usage of the same words. Please forgive me if I don't understand what you mean - I am an old guy.



In English, Nature is a word used to describe the natural world. The 10,000 shades of green, the pond and pine tree, that I see out of my window are examples of Nature. What today is green will next winter be white, and so on. If I want it to stay green or white, this is an illusion. It is not going to stay the same. If I am wise, I understand this. Also, a rope by the side of the road, seen as a snake, at dusk, and making me frightened, is an illusion. So is a real snake, when seen as a rope. If I am wise, I understand this.

Ok, you are right to the point about Nature in English used

If by nature you are, referring to "natural mind," as is used in Dzogchen, then it is useful to consider that everything is illusion (a reflection, a dream, a water bubble, a sky flower, etc) and that whatever appears is the show or display of Rigpa, instant presence. If you take this further, then you will find that, from the viewpoint of instant presence, that all experiences are also pure. This is not found through the use of words, but from direct experience.

Yes you are right that in the Natural State / Natural Mind, it is pure emptiness, dissolving without disturbances etc. But its also self-aware and in itself everything is pure. Everything is appearing as Dharmakaya, reflections are empty as reflections on water, not for grasping.
So if i understood it well are these reflections in so far pure as long as they are not grasped at. Then reflections can be, or turn into illlusion and also be pure in the sense of the display of Rigpa (not at the same time)? But for getting illusion alive what do we need ? I suppose a form of dualism maybe? Can this also related to a certain form of Dzogchen meditation / practice?

So I think that, if I understand your meaning correctly, both of your assumptions are correct.

What this means to me is that if something appears, if I have visions, while in my "natural mind," then I take this appearance as illusion, but I do not name it or call it as such. I just know this to be true. Normally we speak of visions as occurring during the practices of sky gazing, Togal or dark retreat. Then we need to have the confidence that whatever appears, or doesn't appear, is just fine. From the point of view of instant presence, appearances are ALL the same: grist for the rigpa mill: the famous "one taste" of appearances. What appears, arises, and dissolves as it arises: the snake untying its own knot. Nothing to get hung about, as the Beatles sang. Good, or beautiful visions, cannot help instant presence, and bad, or ugly, visions cannot hurt instant presence.

If you "get the benefit" of these practices, then all experience, waking state, dream state, and gaps of unconsciousness, are all "understood" to be the same taste and you neither seek nor fear anything.

Ah

Rest in this luminous open vastness for a moment ---

This is your natural state and the nature of Nature.

I sincerely hope this helps someone. Maybe if English is not your native language, you can go to a good translator, who hopefully also speaks Dzogchen, and get a precise translation.

Long life, in good health, with success in all things, to the Dzogchen Masters (and everybody else too).

ob

[oldbob]

I would be curious to know if there is such thing as the "experience of illusion" and how that feels? Isn't it that an "experience" of any kind is something temporary,illusory in itself and it happens within the field of rigpa and the more powerful an experience(illusion) is the more obvious will be the knowledge ?

I have also a question to those more experienced.
Can one arrive at knowledege of one's state by simply inferring illusion?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would be curious to know if there is such thing as the "experience of illusion" and how that feels?

In my experience there is such a thing as the "ah ha" moment - the experience of illusion. It does have a subtle feeling. It is like being in a dark room, and knowing your surroundings only by touch, and then then turning on the light. Nothing has changed, but everything has changed. It is not a big deal and is a capacity that everybody has. In my experience, this is found most easily through the dark retreat. I like the dark retreat very much. It is good for lazy, simple minded, practitioners like me. Other people will have other favorite practices. Here I am not referring to the experience of enlightenment, because I do not know what that is about (though I feel that the Buddha seed is in all sentient beings, even me. )

I should also mention that the dark retreat is not for everybody. One very experienced practitioner left after a short time, because it was uncomfortable. This is completely correct. We should always work with our circumstances and our limits and not force anything. We don't practice the precious Dharma to be miserable. Please forgive a small redirect. I think it may be more beneficial to look at "happiness" than to seek an "experience" of illusion.

http://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Guide-D ... 290&sr=1-1


Isn't it that an "experience" of any kind is something temporary,illusory in itself and it happens within the field of rigpa and the more powerful an experience(illusion) is the more obvious will be the knowledge ?

Yes and yes. If you are in the state of Rigpa then your temporary, illusory, experiences arise in in that state. It may be slightly less dualistic-speak to say that your experiences are "informed by Rigpa" when you are in the state of Rigpa. At some point words (any words) do not work. Like writing on air. But words are how our ordinary mind expresses itself and so we use them to talk about our experiences beyond words.

[color=#0040FF]I have also a question to those more experienced.

In the fullness of time, (billions and billions of rebirths) we are all very experienced. The fact that in this life, I have done some practice or had some "experiances" does not give me the spiritual high ground over anybody. If I teach again, face to face, it will be in the form of a circle with no one higher than anyone else. This is how I shared the teachings of CHNNR with the circle of students of Mr. Anderson when I brought his precious Teachings to Conway in 1981-1982. I made the trip from NYC to Conway, by bus, six times before we invited ChNNR to visit. We sat in a circle and we took turns reading from the "black book", a transcript of a collection of Teachings that ChNNR had given in Europe. I know that this is not the same as "old king hierarchical style", that Easterners, and some Westerners, are happy with, " but the times they are a-changing." This is why Lord Buddha taught 84,000 (means a lot of) different teachings (so that there would be something for everybody.

Can one arrive at knowledege of one's state by simply inferring illusion?

Good Question.

Since i do not have "knowledge of my own state" nor do i have the ability to "infer" illusion, how can i speak to such a question?

Maybe by inferring an answer.

Many years ago I had heard that Jeffery Hopkins was the only Westerner who could posit emptiness. I thought, hurrah for Jeffery, and because of my Bodhisattva vow, I thought, hmnnnn--- one less that I have to worry about, and I was happy to hear about Jeffery. Then my ordinary mind kicked in and I thought, well that is very nice for Jeffery, but what about for the rest of us? I was quite sure that I did not have Jeffery's intellectual capacity, or big heart. So I took my Bodhisattva vow under the Bodhi tree at Bodh Gaya, from HH the Dalai Lama, studied with many of the great old ones of the Nyingmapas and did a LCNT and HH Dudjom Rinpoche Nundro while living in a Gelugpa monastery. Then being really saddened by what I saw in Dharma centers, I made a

BIG PRAYER TO THE UNIVERSE (should be written as big as the universe) TO FIND A TEACHER WHO WALKED THE WALK.

The universe connected me with ChnNNR and I was no longer jealous of Jeffery. I have heard that Jeffery went on from positing emptiness to practice with some of the great Dzogchen masters of our time, and so I consider that Jeffery should be also be considered a Dzogchen Master as well. I believe he will be attending the Rimed Monlam coming up next weekend at the Garrison Institute.

http://www.garrisoninstitute.org/index. ... Itemid=998
http://www.uma-tibet.org/index.php

I mention Jeffery, because I believe that he would be the best person to answer your question.

Now to answer your question (through inference) with my limited understanding:
Why do some people like blueberry gelato better than strawberry gelato, and vv?
Or --- Is enlightenment sudden or gradual?
--- and the truly profound question of "Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Note: for young folks - this last is a place holder for the ineffability of ANY intellectual pursuit. It is written as a question, but pronounced as a statement of fact.
Heisenberg meets Dzogchen.

May this help someone!!!

May the Dzogchen Masters (and everyone else) live long, in good health and with success in all things.

Good fortune to all and ALL!

ob

[oldbob]

Mutsog Marro writes:


Yes you are right that in the Natural State / Natural Mind, it is pure emptiness, dissolving without disturbances etc. But its also self-aware and in itself everything is pure. Everything is appearing as Dharmakaya, reflections are empty as reflections on water, not for grasping.
So if i understood it well are these reflections in so far pure as long as they are not grasped at.

Yes, no good reflections can help the mirror and no bad reflections can harm it. Everything is pure as long as it is not grasped at - even grasping.

Then reflections can be, or turn into illlusion and also be pure in the sense of the display of Rigpa (not at the same time)?

Yes, from the viewpoint of ordinary mind, reflections are seen as illusion. From the viewpoint of instant presence it is not necessary to say anything. (All reflections are innately pure.)

Does this occur at the same time. I don't know. In Rigpa you are beyond time or any qualifying /naming influence what so ever. So you can't say anything about it. Even such qualifiers as pure, limpid, vast, luminous, clear etc are but fingers pointing at the moon and not the moon itself.

But for getting illusion alive what do we need ? I suppose a form of dualism maybe?

A Dzogchen "Rave" on the beach, on Margarita, works pretty good.
Really thinking about "old age, sickness, and death" works pretty good.

Can this also related to a certain form of Dzogchen meditation / practice?

I think it relates to all Dzogchen meditation / practice.

But for me, dark retreat is the best way to make illusion alive.

Hope this helps,

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, may they live long , in good health, and with success in all things.

ob