The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Fa Dao » Sat May 26, 2012 11:21 pm

mean, you mentioned in other thread that realisation is very rare and we have seen so many great teachers passed away last years and all the great teachears we have left are getting old. so who is going to carry the transmission? or who will have the ability to spread the transmission?

can even DC survive without someone giving the transmissions? do you think Jim Valby will do?


It will all become clear in time.


Malcolm..care to elaborate?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Mariusz » Sun May 27, 2012 1:15 am

Malcolm wrote:What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.
M
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He failed to recognize Rigpa
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 1:17 am

Mariusz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.
M
Image

He failed to recognize Rigpa



:oops:
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun May 27, 2012 1:19 am

:lol:
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Sherlock » Sun May 27, 2012 2:36 am

Let's say the Dzogchen Community (just because it's the largest organization dedicated to Dzogchen practice) produces about 1000 people who will achieve liberation in the bardo and then come back to help those on Earth -- if they reach another 1000 people, that would be 1 million and so on and on.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kirtu » Sun May 27, 2012 4:10 am

Malcolm wrote:

།རྒྱལ་བ་ཀུན་གྱི་གསང་ཆེན་མཛོད།
།བླ་མེད་རྫགས་ཆེན་བསྟན་པ་ནི།
།ཇི་ལྟར་མཁའ་ལ་ཉི་ཤར་བཞིན།
།རྒྱལ་ཁམས་ཡོངས་ལ་དར་རྒྱས་ཤོག

May the secret treasury of all victors,
the unsurpassed Dzogchen teachings,
spread widely through all nations
just like the sun rising in the sky.


May that quickly be true.

However the prophecies concerning Dzogchen surviving as a teaching after the Sravakayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana have died out are likely for the far future.

I do not beleive that traditional Buddhism is in any way capable of addressing the problems we face in the world today. I am sure that it was never capable of addressing these issues. I regard the Shambhala vision of an enlightened society to be a total fantasy, and I regard Thurman's call for a rule of Buddhist philosopher kings a farce -- it completely failed in Tibet, from the beginning. Since it failed there, it will not succeed here.


I hope you will permit me a contrarian view. Dr.Thurman has called the monasteries in Tibet enlightenment factories. He has stretched the truth a bit and has ignored lay yogic contributions. Nonetheless we can enhance the Dharmic communities/societies that currently exist and we can re-establish Dharmic societies in places like Mongolia and Kalmykia, Japan, Korea, Cambodia and Vietnam. Currently things are grim and will remain grim for a while. But we can in fact create the causes and conditions for mahasiddhas within each of the Dharmic traditions. All we need to do is to begin seriously where we are.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Sherlock » Sun May 27, 2012 4:15 am

Yeah I think it will be definitely more than 500 years.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 4:19 am

kirtu wrote:
I hope you will permit me a contrarian view.


How dare you. ;-)
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun May 27, 2012 10:11 am

Mariusz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.
M
Image

He failed to recognize Rigpa



Tashi delek,

All extreme fanatism will end like showed on the photo.
It happens always when the feet are from the ground and the head is floating in emptiness.

In history we have had many persons with great ideas who realy were convinced about their ideals, but all these empires did not last long.

England was the last one. In the Catolic church we know the missonary aspect of baptizing the unbelievers, who were ready for hell if not baptised, the so called black souls.

So it's not the ideal or the idea which does cause fanatism but the driver(s) who is / are behind. The idea can be excellent but in practise we have humans and humans and some don't understand it very well, and here is fanatism easily born.

We always see the shepard and the herd. This herd is mostly not so clever as the shepard.......
Therefore can great multitudes easily be manipulated. We know in history many of these shepards and only Buddhas and the like are excluded from this bad image.

Christinianity, Muslim, Hidhuism, Buddhism etc. are not bad qua text / scripture etc. but their adherents are mostly deluded.
But if all were practising Compassion + Wisdom, then it would be a wonderfull world. That would be a nice base with the individual freedom and the possibility to choose a certain personal Path. I guess this is the base we will need and that base will come in the nearby future and not a one sided method, like one size fits all (Frank Zappa). lets go out from our actual earthly situation that is more than enough.

What happened yesterday does not exist, and tomorrow does not exist either. What does exist is today or now at the very moment and that is also quick gone. That is finally in the here and now, the naked reality. And how does it look like? Can we be happy with it or not. If not, we can change something on a moderate way..........

Better lets start to improve the actual situation in our world, that will lead to a better world with individual freedom and not the so called utopia(s) which are no more than bubbles on the water or view points coming from a certain minority who has the wish to dominate in the nearby future with a certain Religion, philosophy, tradition, sect etc.

If i look into my garden i can see many nice flowers not one is more beautifull then the other one.
It would be very one sided to have only roses in the garden with one colour.
I guess in Nature there are more. :D

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun May 27, 2012 11:50 am

rai wrote:i mean, you mentioned in other thread that realisation is very rare and we have seen so many great teachers passed away last years and all the great teachears we have left are getting old. so who is going to carry the transmission? or who will have the ability to spread the transmission?

can even DC survive without someone giving the transmissions? do you think Jim Valby will do?


People do keep forgetting Khyentse Yeshe. And there certainly are very advanced practitioners who aren't as famous as Valby (justly, of course) is. And, finally, we are still very fortunate for Rinpoche isn't dead yet, right?
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Simon E. » Sun May 27, 2012 11:56 am

Sherlock wrote:Yeah I think it will be definitely more than 500 years.

Well in that case you can relax and make yourself a mug of yak- buttered tea. :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun May 27, 2012 11:57 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
rai wrote:i mean, you mentioned in other thread that realisation is very rare and we have seen so many great teachers passed away last years and all the great teachears we have left are getting old. so who is going to carry the transmission? or who will have the ability to spread the transmission?

can even DC survive without someone giving the transmissions? do you think Jim Valby will do?


People do keep forgetting Khyentse Yeshe. And there certainly are very advanced practitioners who aren't as famous as Valby (justly, of course) is. And, finally, we are still very fortunate for Rinpoche isn't dead yet, right?



Tashi delek,

I guess that in case of a future Rigdzin the best one will succeed and i don't know who this person is.
Only the best Husky can lead the troop as a leader, otherwise the troop can get stucked.

But mostly is it very sure that a Master like ChNN did allready made his choice seen his age.
Otherwise is the Tulku ship another option, but also am not informed if ChNN is planning this.
But we know that in Shakya the family Tradition is counting.....

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Sun May 27, 2012 12:57 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:...
I guess that in case of a future Rigdzin the best one will succeed and i don't know who this person is.
Only the best Husky can lead the troop as a leader, otherwise the troop can get stucked.

But mostly is it very sure that a Master like ChNN did allready made his choice seen his age.
Otherwise is the Tulku ship another option, but also am not informed if ChNN is planning this.
But we know that in Shakya the family Tradition is counting.....

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]


Or there is a big gap between what member of DC say and what you (and other) say ... or clearely there is a total misunderstanding. Nevermind, after so many pages of exchanges, I stop trying to rectify ... (and this is also valid for the other thread which is "temporary" closed for cleaning (I do not know how cleaning is possible when it's a total mess.

All be happy
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Sherlock » Sun May 27, 2012 1:12 pm

On the Merigar site, Yeshi Silvano Namkhai is under the Base Teachers of SMS.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun May 27, 2012 1:27 pm

Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:...
I guess that in case of a future Rigdzin the best one will succeed and i don't know who this person is.
Only the best Husky can lead the troop as a leader, otherwise the troop can get stucked.

But mostly is it very sure that a Master like ChNN did allready made his choice seen his age.
Otherwise is the Tulku ship another option, but also am not informed if ChNN is planning this.
But we know that in Shakya the family Tradition is counting.....

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]


Or there is a big gap between what member of DC say and what you (and other) say ... or clearely there is a total misunderstanding. Nevermind, after so many pages of exchanges, I stop trying to rectify ... (and this is also valid for the other thread which is "temporary" closed for cleaning (I do not know how cleaning is possible when it's a total mess.

All be happy
Sönam



Tashi delek,

Yes there is a gap between the followers from ChNN and others who don' t follow his Teachings. Or better said there are people who represent another vision, which is sure the aim of this forum that we can have another opinion. But is a gap needed in case of another opinion? :D

It is remarkable that there can be some different point of views and that is sure not the so called total mass....
What has to be cleaned is in my eyes things which obscures others because it not at all based on the "truth", but another position or point of view is certain not a mass and in our world of democracy allowed. But that does count also for the other party or is bi-lateral.

I guess also that one can better discuss on the General Dzogchen Forum those topics related to General Dzogchen.
This will make bi-lateral General Dzogchen discussions easier to follow and so not a "total mass" can happen which has to be cleaned up.

Only suggestions from my side, the mods know better what to do, i guess.
I see what is meant by cleaned up, language can be difficult to understand sometimes....... :D


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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby dorje e gabbana » Sun May 27, 2012 1:58 pm

Let's say the Dzogchen Community (just because it's the largest organization dedicated to Dzogchen practice) produces about 1000 people who will achieve liberation in the bardo and then come back to help those on Earth -- if they reach another 1000 people, that would be 1 million and so on and on.

Where did you see this numbers, in your dream practice?
Come on, let's come back to the reality. Achieving an undestanding of Rigpa state during your life is quite far from realizing a stable trekchod that is the only cause to get realization during the Bardo state :rules: :twothumbsup:
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby dorje e gabbana » Sun May 27, 2012 2:08 pm

Sherlock wrote:On the Merigar site, Yeshi Silvano Namkhai is under the Base Teachers of SMS.

Really? I supposed he was a high ranking teacher
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby rai » Sun May 27, 2012 2:10 pm

dorje e gabbana wrote:
Let's say the Dzogchen Community (just because it's the largest organization dedicated to Dzogchen practice) produces about 1000 people who will achieve liberation in the bardo and then come back to help those on Earth -- if they reach another 1000 people, that would be 1 million and so on and on.

Where did you see this numbers, in your dream practice?


:rolling:
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun May 27, 2012 2:13 pm

dorje e gabbana wrote:
Let's say the Dzogchen Community (just because it's the largest organization dedicated to Dzogchen practice) produces about 1000 people who will achieve liberation in the bardo and then come back to help those on Earth -- if they reach another 1000 people, that would be 1 million and so on and on.

Where did you see this numbers, in your dream practice?
Come on, let's come back to the reality. Achieving an undestanding of Rigpa state during your life is quite far from realizing a stable trekchod that is the only cause to get realization during the Bardo state :rules: :twothumbsup:



Tashi delek,

But what would mean Trekchod without Thogal for a Dzogchenpa?

- So Dzogchen pratice implies 2 possible achievements ?
- Brief said, Bardo and no Bardo?
- To get these achievements Guru Yoga is nescessary?

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Sherlock » Sun May 27, 2012 2:15 pm

ChNN continuously says Guruyoga of the White A is the best Phowa and will bring liberation in the bardo of dharmata.
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