The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 9:48 pm

Andrew108 wrote:To have a hope that the world will wake up to Dzogchen is falling into an extreme.



།རྒྱལ་བ་ཀུན་གྱི་གསང་ཆེན་མཛོད།
།བླ་མེད་རྫགས་ཆེན་བསྟན་པ་ནི།
།ཇི་ལྟར་མཁའ་ལ་ཉི་ཤར་བཞིན།
།རྒྱལ་ཁམས་ཡོངས་ལ་དར་རྒྱས་ཤོག

May the secret treasury of all victors,
the unsurpassed Dzogchen teachings,
spread widely through all nations
just like the sun rising in the sky.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby rai » Sat May 26, 2012 9:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.

Well you see, Sally, it means the New Dzogchen World Order will start in the Southwest, with the former USA as the central capital of the world.

:woohoo:


sorry i dont really follow this thread. you are joking Malcolm, right?

i mean, you mentioned in other thread that realisation is very rare and we have seen so many great teachers passed away last years and all the great teachears we have left are getting old. so who is going to carry the transmission? or who will have the ability to spread the transmission?

can even DC survive without someone giving the transmissions? do you think Jim Valby will do?
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 9:58 pm

rai wrote:
sorry i dont really follow this thread. you are joking Malcolm, right?



About a Dzogchen New World Order? Of course i was kidding.


i mean, you mentioned in other thread that realisation is very rare and we have seen so many great teachers passed away last years and all the great teachears we have left are getting old. so who is going to carry the transmission? or who will have the ability to spread the transmission?

can even DC survive without someone giving the transmissions? do you think Jim Valby will do?


It will all become clear in time.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat May 26, 2012 9:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:To have a hope that the world will wake up to Dzogchen is falling into an extreme.



།རྒྱལ་བ་ཀུན་གྱི་གསང་ཆེན་མཛོད།
།བླ་མེད་རྫགས་ཆེན་བསྟན་པ་ནི།
།ཇི་ལྟར་མཁའ་ལ་ཉི་ཤར་བཞིན།
།རྒྱལ་ཁམས་ཡོངས་ལ་དར་རྒྱས་ཤོག

May the secret treasury of all victors,
the unsurpassed Dzogchen teachings,
spread widely through all nations
just like the sun rising in the sky.



Tashi delek,

It is wished and not reality.

Reality is found in the complete version of Buddhadharma namel like Andrew did suggest also in / with Sutra and Tantra.
So if Dzogchen would be spread without Sutra and Tantra would mean that everybody is fit for Dzogchen, and that is what is greatly doubt by me.

Below a vision about needed preliminaries,
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=8537

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 10:01 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Reality is found in the complete version of Buddhadharma namel like Andrew did suggest also in Sutra and Tantra.
So if Dzogchen would be spread without Sutra and Tantra would mean that everybody is fit for Dzogchen, and that is what is greatly doubt by me.

KY


ChNN has often spoken of a time in the future on this planet when all teachings apart from Dzogchen have completely disappeared, and all people practice only Dzogchen.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat May 26, 2012 10:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Reality is found in the complete version of Buddhadharma namel like Andrew did suggest also in Sutra and Tantra.
So if Dzogchen would be spread without Sutra and Tantra would mean that everybody is fit for Dzogchen, and that is what is greatly doubt by me.

KY


ChNN has often spoken of a time in the future on this planet when all teachings apart from Dzogchen have completely disappeared, and all people practice only Dzogchen.

M



Tashi delek,

Ok could happen over how many years, maybe? Is at that future moment Sutra and Tantra realy vaporised? We only have Dharmakaya teachings ?
That would be the time to be in reincarnated as human. But that are only certain humans due to their karma i guess who would be reborn in those days. Is this maybe predicted in a Dzogchen Tantra?

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby rai » Sat May 26, 2012 10:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
rai wrote:
sorry i dont really follow this thread. you are joking Malcolm, right?

i mean, you mentioned in other thread that realisation is very rare and we have seen so many great teachers passed away last years and all the great teachears we have left are getting old. so who is going to carry the transmission? or who will have the ability to spread the transmission?



About a Dzogchen New World Order? Of course i was kidding.




no i mean that the Dzogchen will spread. you mentioned that we have very few realized masters alive and they are getting old so who is going to do the job?
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
rai
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:58 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 10:13 pm

rai wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
rai wrote:
sorry i dont really follow this thread. you are joking Malcolm, right?

i mean, you mentioned in other thread that realisation is very rare and we have seen so many great teachers passed away last years and all the great teachears we have left are getting old. so who is going to carry the transmission? or who will have the ability to spread the transmission?



About a Dzogchen New World Order? Of course i was kidding.




no i mean that the Dzogchen will spread. you mentioned that we have very few realized masters alive and they are getting old so who is going to do the job?



Of course Dzogchn will spread, it is now spreading. I firmly believe this.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dronma » Sat May 26, 2012 10:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Reality is found in the complete version of Buddhadharma namel like Andrew did suggest also in Sutra and Tantra.
So if Dzogchen would be spread without Sutra and Tantra would mean that everybody is fit for Dzogchen, and that is what is greatly doubt by me.

KY


ChNN has often spoken of a time in the future on this planet when all teachings apart from Dzogchen have completely disappeared, and all people practice only Dzogchen.

M



Malcolm, you are kidding! Isn't it?
I never heard or read such statement from ChNN Rinpoche himself.
Occasionally he says that it would be wonderful if more people will be able to practise and discover the real nature of mind. Because he believes in evolution and not revolution!
Of course, this is my own understanding of his words, so please feel free to express yourself according to your own understanding. :namaste:

P.S. I am not interested in debating, but it is really a pitty to paraphrase the words of our teacher in a way that sounds autocratic to most people. By the way, "autocratic" and "autocracy" do not have positive meaning at all (I know because they are both Greek words).
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby dorje e gabbana » Sat May 26, 2012 10:25 pm

no i mean that the Dzogchen will spread. you mentioned that we have very few realized masters alive and they are getting old so who is going to do the job?


Having always less realized master alive the danger is that in the future only a fake form of dzog Chen will spread, even because it is a very good spiritual product to sell with respect to Tantra: no samaya, non esotic ritual to be performed.
And CNNE was very clear about the fact that without real realization Dzog Chen trasmission cannot happen
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 10:25 pm

Dronma wrote:Malcolm, you are kidding! Isn't it?


No, not at all. There are predictions to this effect in the original tantras of Dzogchen.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 10:26 pm

dorje e gabbana wrote:And CNNE was very clear about the fact that without real realization Dzog Chen trasmission cannot happen


Of course. What could you have possibly thought I meant?
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat May 26, 2012 10:28 pm

dorje e gabbana wrote:
no i mean that the Dzogchen will spread. you mentioned that we have very few realized masters alive and they are getting old so who is going to do the job?


Having always less realized master alive the danger is that in the future only a fake form of dzog Chen will spread, even because it is a very good spiritual product to sell with respect to Tantra: no samaya, non esotic ritual to be performed.
And CNNE was very clear about the fact that without real realization Dzog Chen trasmission cannot happen



Tashi delek,

Could you explain what is meant by:
"without real realization Dzog Chen trasmission cannot happen"?


Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby dorje e gabbana » Sat May 26, 2012 10:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dorje e gabbana wrote:And CNNE was very clear about the fact that without real realization Dzog Chen trasmission cannot happen


Of course. What could you have possibly thought I meant?

I wasn't referring to what you meant. Simply it is very difficult to concilate thesw 2 facts: Less realized master on one hand and the Spreading of real dozgchen on the other hand, instead of a fake misleading dzogchen taught by not realized master
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 10:34 pm

dorje e gabbana wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dorje e gabbana wrote:And CNNE was very clear about the fact that without real realization Dzog Chen trasmission cannot happen


Of course. What could you have possibly thought I meant?

I wasn't referring to what you meant. Simply it is very difficult to concilate thesw 2 facts: Less realized master on one hand and the Spreading of real dozgchen on the other hand, instead of a fake misleading dzogchen taught by not realized master



I think the implicaion of my statement is that there will be more people who have real knowledge of Dzogchen and are able to successfully communicate this to others.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby dorje e gabbana » Sat May 26, 2012 10:43 pm

Tashi delek,

Could you explain what is meant by:
"without real realization Dzog Chen trasmission cannot happen"?
Mutsog Marro
KY


It is very easy. Only an accomplised master who has realized not only trek chod but also todgal can be defined a realized Dzog Chen master.
It is evident that the number of living realized masters is decreasing as the time goes by and not the contrary. So without many realized Dzog Chen master what kind of dzog chen will be spread in 30 yrs? And in 50 yrs?
The answer it is not difficult
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby dorje e gabbana » Sat May 26, 2012 10:47 pm

think the implicaion of my statement is that there will be more people who have real knowledge of Dzogchen and are able to successfully communicate this to others

I wish you will be right but it sounds a little bit like a new age thought, like the celestine prophecy, Aquarian age and a lot staff like that.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 10:55 pm

dorje e gabbana wrote:
think the implicaion of my statement is that there will be more people who have real knowledge of Dzogchen and are able to successfully communicate this to others

I wish you will be right but it sounds a little bit like a new age thought, like the celestine prophecy, Aquarian age and a lot staff like that.



I guess I just have more confidence in people than you do.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby dorje e gabbana » Sat May 26, 2012 11:07 pm

Simply it is very difficult to concilate thesw 2 facts: Less realized master on one hand and the Spreading of real dozgchen on the other hand, instead of a fake misleading dzogchen taught by not realized master

I guess I just have more confidence in people than you do.


Positive thought is fine if you speak about a master like Antony Robbins, but unfortunately we are speaking about another kind of teaching.
And BTW you have not anwered to my previous consideration I quote above

I have not heard about many Rainbow Body around, after HH Dudjom rinpoche, instead according to CNNR stories in Tibet there where many rainbow bodies between Dzog chen masters

So Malcon, tell me please how you can conciliate the fact we have Less realized master as the time goes by on one hand and the Spreading of real dzogchen on the other hand?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 11:16 pm

dorje e gabbana wrote:
Simply it is very difficult to concilate thesw 2 facts: Less realized master on one hand and the Spreading of real dozgchen on the other hand, instead of a fake misleading dzogchen taught by not realized master

I guess I just have more confidence in people than you do.


Positive thought is fine if you speak about master like Antony Robbins, but you have not anwered to my previous consideration I quote above

I have not heard about many Rainbow around, after HH Dudjom rinpoche, when according to CNNR stories in Tibet there where many rainbow bodies between Dzog chen masters?

So Malcon, tell me please how you can conciliate Less realized master as the time goes by on one hand and the Spreading of real dzogchen on the other hand?


Well, D&G, most people who realize Dzogchen teachings fully awaken in the bardo. There are 21 capacities of practitioners. Having the ability to correctly and perfectly communicate the transmission of Dzogchen does not necessarily mean you yourself will attain phowa chenpo, or even rainbow body. But everyone who sincerely dedicates themselves to Dzogchen, having had the fortune to meet the full teachings will awaken in the bardo -- or at minimum they will spend 500 years in the pure nirmanakāya buddhafields before acheiving total realization. This is guaranteed as long as you understand the teachings. The third statement of Garab Dorje, literally translated means "continue in the confidence of liberation" -- this does not mean of course you are totally realized. It means you know the true meaning of liberation and are certain of acheiving it, so you "...continue in that state".
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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