Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

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Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby Michal » Sat May 26, 2012 7:03 pm

Hi,
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu always says quite categorically that to produce the function of the mantra, you need to have received its lung, otherwise it does not work.
But there are a lot of teachers like AFAIK Lama Zopa Rinpoche or Tsem Tulku Rinpoche who just publish a lot of even quite high mantras (like protectors and so on) even on the internet just as you can normally use them without any empowerment.
So I really don´t know what to think of it. Are these teachers just wrong :thinking:?
Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche once said, "(...) The sun and the moon are reflected in clear, still water instantly. Similarly, the blessings of all the buddhas are always present for those who have complete confidence in them. (...)" - What more then the blessings of all the buddhas could one ever need to produce the function of a mantra??

For me, at least Sanskrit mantras are kind of vibrations connected to some archetypes of Western culture whose language came up from Sanskrit (sorry for Jungian, not "Buddhist" terminology). So I think, at least if I recite it in the condotion of buddha-nature, i.e. connected to the Dharmakaya quality, in a non-dual vision or however I call it, it should work just as sound has power to affect matter (watch for example http://youtu.be/Uu6Ox5LrhJg). But I really may be quite wrong, I don´t know.

Also, I for one even have i little bit problem with how Chögyal Namkhai Norbu gives lungs via internet: He reads something very quickly, often not possible to understand, then it is converted to 0&1 (i.e. bits) and then your home-computer converts it back to sound. So the sound, its analogue-quality is completely lost on the way. How could it work, then?

Also, sometimes, when I am listening to the DC-webcast and the lungs on its last day, in fact I am not even in the state of Guruyoga, so really very far from an experience of the deity concerned. Could it work then, that I receive it?

And also I would like to ask, there are some mantras or dharanis in Sutric Buddhism like GATE-mantra and so on. Maybe, as they belong to Sutra and not Tantra, one does not need lung for these mantras?

ÓM Ah HÚM
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat May 26, 2012 7:57 pm

Just found this thread:

Electronic Dzogchen

I've wondered, or maybe even heard, that it could be that some Mantras were empowered by the Deity who originated them or by the Rishi who first received them, in such a way that they will work for anyone; and that other Mantras were empowered by the Deity or Rishi in such a way that they will work only for ones who have received the transmission for them. Or maybe the latter type of Mantras can still work for those who haven't received the transmission, but will be much more limited in their effect.

As for effecting 'matter' such as in the above youtube video, or as in the water-pattern experiments of Masaru Emoto, I don't see why not. Almost all Religions consider 'The Word' to be the Creative Power of the Divine. And in Dzogchen, Sound is of the Dharmakaya.

About receiving the Lung's over the internet, I think that the transmission power of the Mantra can also be empowered by the intention of the Guru; for example, I believe that Pero and/or Malcolm wrote in another thread that Dodrupchen Rinpoche used to send his students Lung's on tape so that they could receive them.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's intention is for us to receive the Transmissions, so I don't see any problem.

:anjali:
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby LunaRoja » Sat May 26, 2012 8:33 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Just found this thread:

Electronic Dzogchen

I've wondered, or maybe even heard, that it could be that some Mantras were empowered by the Deity who originated them or by the Rishi who first received them, in such a way that they will work for anyone; and that other Mantras were empowered by the Deity or Rishi in such a way that they will work only for ones who have received the transmission for them. Or maybe the latter type of Mantras can still work for those who haven't received the transmission, but will be much more limited in their effect.


Actually I think it is the opposite the deity comes from the mantra. One time when ChNN was teaching he mentioned Kalachakra. How could Kalachakra have come from Shahkyamuni Buddha since Shakyamuni was a monk? He then said Kalachakra came from the mantra. For me this is why the mantras are sacred. First comes sound then rays and lights. The sacred sound is the origin of the deity as I understand it. Also it is through mantra recitation that you become the deity in deity yoga practice, sending and receiving blessings throughout the universe.

Peace,

LR
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 8:36 pm

LunaRoja wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Just found this thread:

Electronic Dzogchen

I've wondered, or maybe even heard, that it could be that some Mantras were empowered by the Deity who originated them or by the Rishi who first received them, in such a way that they will work for anyone; and that other Mantras were empowered by the Deity or Rishi in such a way that they will work only for ones who have received the transmission for them. Or maybe the latter type of Mantras can still work for those who haven't received the transmission, but will be much more limited in their effect.


Actually I think it is the opposite the deity comes from the mantra. One time when ChNN was teaching he mentioned Kalachakra. How could Kalachakra have come from Shahkyamuni Buddha since Shakyamuni was a monk? He then said Kalachakra came from the mantra. For me this is why the mantras are sacred. First comes sound then rays and lights. The sacred sound is the origin of the deity as I understand it. Also it is through mantra recitation that you become the deity in deity yoga practice, sending and receiving blessings throughout the universe.

Peace,

LR


Sounds, lights and rays are the qualities of the three kāyas, not the three kāyas themselves. Kalacakra is a sambhogakāya manifestation. Shakyamuni had that realization, so he was able to communicate that concretely to those who could perceive it.
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby LunaRoja » Sat May 26, 2012 8:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:Sounds, lights and rays are the qualities of the three kāyas, not the three kāyas themselves. Kalacakra is a sambhogakāya manifestation. Shakyamuni had that realization, so he was able to communicate that concretely to those who could perceive it.


Actually this is not what he said. He said the source of Kalachakra was from the mantra the sound.
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat May 26, 2012 8:46 pm

Right, to all said here.

Well I basically meant that the Intelligence so-to-speak of the Mantra and the Deity are inseparable.

Didn't mean to imply that one necessarily comes before the other.

Dharmakaya - Sound - Guru/Lama

Sambhogakaya - Light - Deva/Yidam

Nirmanakaya - Rays - Dakini/Khandro

So yeah, Sound is always 'first'.

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche wrote:"In fact, the Sound, Light, and Rays are perfected as the Three Kayas."
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 8:51 pm

LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Sounds, lights and rays are the qualities of the three kāyas, not the three kāyas themselves. Kalacakra is a sambhogakāya manifestation. Shakyamuni had that realization, so he was able to communicate that concretely to those who could perceive it.


Actually this is not what he said. He said the source of Kalachakra was from the mantra the sound.


Sound is a quality of dharmakāya because vibration is related to emptiness and all manifestations ultimately arise from dharmakāya. So we can say that all manifestations come from sound, and sound is possible because of emptiness. The way I understand this is that emptiness permits vibration; that vibration manifests as light, the quality of clarity; light manifests as rays, the quality of energy. For this reason the first of all syllables is A.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby LunaRoja » Sat May 26, 2012 9:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Sounds, lights and rays are the qualities of the three kāyas, not the three kāyas themselves. Kalacakra is a sambhogakāya manifestation. Shakyamuni had that realization, so he was able to communicate that concretely to those who could perceive it.


Actually this is not what he said. He said the source of Kalachakra was from the mantra the sound.


Sound is a quality of dharmakāya because vibration is related to emptiness and all manifestations ultimately arise from dharmakāya. So we can say that all manifestations come from sound, and sound is possible because of emptiness. The way I understand this is that emptiness permits vibration; that vibration manifests as light, the quality of clarity; light manifests as rays, the quality of energy. For this reason the first of all syllables is A.

N


Yes, this is also how I understand it. This is why the short A is the sacred sound that is the basis of all sound.

ChNN gave this teaching during one of the Webcasts last fall. If my memory is correct it was while he was on Margarita island. He specifically asked how could Buddha Shakyamuni have taught Kalchakra since he was a monk? Then he said that Kalachakra came from the mantra.

Interestingly Dolpopa believes that mantras are eternal that mantras are Buddha nature. Since the Jonang believe the highest teachings are the empty form body of Kalachakra then they have a specific connection with the Kalchakra mantra in this way.
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby LunaRoja » Sat May 26, 2012 9:08 pm

Malcolm wrote: For this reason the first of all syllables is A.

N


The manjushri nama samgiti also teaches that all sound comes from the short A. The shortest recitation of the prajnaparamitra sutra is also the short A.

So it is really the basis of all.
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat May 26, 2012 9:16 pm

*Edit* Deserves its own thread, will try to post later.
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 9:19 pm

LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote: For this reason the first of all syllables is A.

N


The manjushri nama samgiti also teaches that all sound comes from the short A. The shortest recitation of the prajnaparamitra is also the short A.

So it is really the basis of all.



Yes. Also Hindus beleive this as well. This a common idea between Buddhism and many non-dual Hindu traditions.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby Nemo » Sat May 26, 2012 9:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Sounds, lights and rays are the qualities of the three kāyas, not the three kāyas themselves. Kalacakra is a sambhogakāya manifestation. Shakyamuni had that realization, so he was able to communicate that concretely to those who could perceive it.


Actually this is not what he said. He said the source of Kalachakra was from the mantra the sound.


Sound is a quality of dharmakāya because vibration is related to emptiness and all manifestations ultimately arise from dharmakāya. So we can say that all manifestations come from sound, and sound is possible because of emptiness. The way I understand this is that emptiness permits vibration; that vibration manifests as light, the quality of clarity; light manifests as rays, the quality of energy. For this reason the first of all syllables is A.

N

Isn't it more like sound is the sense most synonymous with emptiness. Invisible, it comes and then disappears leaving no trace.

Proper initiation is essential to traditional Tantric practice. There are few exceptions. There are many things a Lama does before an initiation that they do not talk about. There is simply more to it than what can be casually observed.

I would not bother seeing a Lama who published Protector Mantras on the internet. Though I doubt they are the actual mantra. Usually just barely recognizable bastardizations.
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby LunaRoja » Sat May 26, 2012 10:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote: For this reason the first of all syllables is A.

N


The manjushri nama samgiti also teaches that all sound comes from the short A. The shortest recitation of the prajnaparamitra is also the short A.

So it is really the basis of all.



Yes. Also Hindus beleive this as well. This a common idea between Buddhism and many non-dual Hindu traditions.


YAY we agree! :applause:
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Re: Why is a lung for mantra necessary?

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 11:00 pm

LunaRoja wrote:
YAY we agree! :applause:


Well, when we exercise patience, we will almost always get to yes if we want to. :thumbsup:
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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