The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

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The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 7:24 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote: What is left here that is utopia which resembles Dzogchen new age a la 2012. :shock:


What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.

Image


M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sat May 26, 2012 7:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:I do not beleive that traditional Buddhism is in any way capable of addressing the problems we face in the world today. I am sure that it was never capable of addressing these issues. I regard the Shambhala vision of an enlightened society to be a total fantasy, and I regard Thurman's call for a rule of Buddhist philosopher kings a farce -- it completely failed in Tibet, from the beginning. Since it failed there, it will not succeed here.

The only way we can solve the problems we have in the word today is to put down our socio/religious/culture banners. We must be like Angulimala -- we must stop. If we human beings cannot get along as one human family, there will be no chance for Dharma let alone Buddhism, no anything -- just war, famine, sickness and death.


Good to read it stated like that here, so plainly and so bluntly - and know that people aren't pouring buckets of scorn over you for saying it. What righteous anger do such words usually conjure :-)
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Norwegian » Sat May 26, 2012 7:27 pm

Malcolm,

That is an awesome image.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 7:29 pm

Norwegian wrote:Malcolm,

That is an awesome image.



I have no skill as a graphic designer, but I think it gets the message across.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat May 26, 2012 7:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote: What is left here that is utopia which resembles Dzogchen new age a la 2012. :shock:


What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.

Image


M



Tashi delek,

Ok its your dream or expectation but that is only counting for you and others. This does need also to be treated with respect.

But for Bon this is realy utopia not for you of course. Bonpos did met many hardships and they maintained their Lineage. So changing here meaning that Bonpos foresake their Lineage and would give outside their Lineage Dzogchen Teachings as non Bonpos that is very hard to believe for a Bonpo.

Also for some non-Bonpos i guess so.

In History it happened during the persecution thatt some Bon Dzogchen Masters became non-Bonpos and translating Bon texts to Buddhist terms.
But they kept nevertheless their Bon tradition in secret.

So Bon cannot be changed so quick or there must be a better Bon :D


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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 26, 2012 8:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.

Image


M

This is scary. As Dzogchen isn't really open for criticism I hope that it doesn't become another form of control.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 8:54 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.

Image


M

This is scary. As Dzogchen isn't really open for criticism I hope that it doesn't become another form of control.


Yes, we are going to force everyone to have rainbow body whether they want it or not

Bwahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha. :cheers:
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 26, 2012 9:07 pm

I'm not laughing. Wait until the psychotherapists get a hold of it.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sally Gross » Sat May 26, 2012 9:11 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.

Image


M

This is scary. As Dzogchen isn't really open for criticism I hope that it doesn't become another form of control.


A form of control is something which is imposed. How can Dzogchen be imposed? A state of awareness which cannot be achieved by striving .... We are talking about letting go and relaxing, about letting things be and not about some kind of global power-structure which seeks to manilulate and to control. It is a lovely image, though it jars me slightly as a South African to see a globe showing on North America. I'm used to images of the globe showing at least a bit of Africa and other continents as well. What is needed is a holographic 3D rainbow sphere. Is a drop or a sphere also a thigle?
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Norwegian » Sat May 26, 2012 9:20 pm

Dear Andrew,

Set aside your comments for a while.

Consider what a Bodhisattva vows to do in the context of all sentient beings.

Now, what is the purpose of Dharma or Dzogchen if not total awakening?

Ask yourself whether total awakening for all sentient beings is a very positive thing, or a very negative thing, something that you think is bad and horrible.

Malcolms image of the entire globe radiating lights, with an A in the center is a very nice and powerful symbol. Of course, it is probably not something that will occur tomorrow, or next week. But as far as direction is concerned (for those who populate this planet), it is a worthy one to take.

Yes? No?

I for one like this planet, and think it would be very positive if the human race evolved in the right direction.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Sat May 26, 2012 9:23 pm

Sally Gross wrote:...
It is a lovely image, though it jars me slightly as a South African to see a globe showing on North America. I'm used to images of the globe showing at least a bit of Africa and other continents as well. What is needed is a holographic 3D rainbow sphere. Is a drop or a sphere also a thigle?


I had the same though coming from that image ... BUt my self is more use of the European view in front :applause:

this view for exemple Image

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Sat May 26, 2012 9:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote: What is left here that is utopia which resembles Dzogchen new age a la 2012. :shock:


What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.
M


You sound like a taliban.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 9:25 pm

Sally Gross wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.

Image


M

This is scary. As Dzogchen isn't really open for criticism I hope that it doesn't become another form of control.


A form of control is something which is imposed. How can Dzogchen be imposed? A state of awareness which cannot be achieved by striving .... We are talking about letting go and relaxing, about letting things be and not about some kind of global power-structure which seeks to manilulate and to control. It is a lovely image, though it jars me slightly as a South African to see a globe showing on North America. I'm used to images of the globe showing at least a bit of Africa and other continents as well. What is needed is a holographic 3D rainbow sphere. Is a drop or a sphere also a thigle?



Well you see, Sally, it means the New Dzogchen World Order will start in the Southwest, with the former USA as the central capital of the world.

:woohoo:
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 9:26 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote: What is left here that is utopia which resembles Dzogchen new age a la 2012. :shock:


What is left here is my conviction that Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet. If you consider this utopian, fine. I consider this inevitable.
M


You sound like a taliban.

/magnus


Nice.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 9:28 pm

Sönam wrote:
Sally Gross wrote:...
It is a lovely image, though it jars me slightly as a South African to see a globe showing on North America. I'm used to images of the globe showing at least a bit of Africa and other continents as well. What is needed is a holographic 3D rainbow sphere. Is a drop or a sphere also a thigle?


I had the same though coming from that image ... BUt my self is more use of the European view in front :applause:

this view for exemple Image

Sönam



Well good the thing the globe turns on an axis. I have no skill with 3d images so I am sorry that some of you feel left out.

The image I used was the famous Blue Pearl, the first color image of the globe take from space.(Oh Lord, now someone is going to accuse me of subverting Dzogchen with Siddha Yoga's blue pearl meditation)/
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat May 26, 2012 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby gad rgyangs » Sat May 26, 2012 9:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:..Dzogchen will leave behind its traditional trappings and spread to all human beings on this planet.
M


well Bultmann "demythologized" christianity, and it turned out not much was left. now, dzogchen (meaning the tradition and its teachings) points to our real condition, but I wonder what dzogchen could look like after it "leaves behind its traditional trappings"? how can it point to our real condition without using all its "trappings"? what is a tradition besides it's "trappings"?

Perhaps you are suggesting a new tradition, using western & scientific trappings to take the place of dzogchen's "traditional trappings"? Sounds good to me, just whip out yer mirror and crystal and do pointing out.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2012 9:31 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Perhaps you are suggesting a new tradition...


No, that is not what I mean. But it is natural that some peple might misunderstand what I mean.

What I mean is that Dzogchen in the future may be transmitted in the traditional buddhist and bon containers it has had -- but it will also be spread seperately from them depending on circumstances.
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Sat May 26, 2012 9:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Well good the thing the globe turns on an axis. I have no skill with 3d images so I am sorry that some of you feel left out.

The image I used was the famous Blue Pearl, the first color image of the globe take from space.(Oh Lord, now someone is going to accuse me of subverting Dzogchen with Siddha Yoga's blue pearl meditation)/


don't worry ... the though I had was my own limitation :rolling:
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhasa » Sat May 26, 2012 9:40 pm

[quote="Malcolm
The image I used was the famous Blue Pearl, the first color image of the globe take from space.(Oh Lord, now someone is going to accuse me of subverting Dzogchen with Siddha Yoga's blue pearl meditation)/[/quote]

I'm a survivor of the infamous Siddha Yoga guru wars, and the last time the blue pearl flashed at me I just said, "Yeah, big deal, what have you done for me lately?"
Here's to finding a Teacher who really gives a ....! :cheers:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 26, 2012 9:45 pm

For Dzogchen to be spread it has to be asserted. When it is asserted it is misunderstood. To have a hope that the world will wake up to Dzogchen is falling into an extreme. To fall into an extreme is to fall away from Bodhisattva activity.
I'm not being polemic for the sake of it. I feel that Dzogchen is a gentle breeze rather than a big storm. It whispers rather than shouts. It's purpose comes as a revelation after a lot of searching and effort. It is beyond being an antidote. The Dzogchen masters of the past defended Dzogchen from the claim that it was not Buddhist. They provided scriptural reasoning to show that Dzogchen whilst being a special case could still justify itself in terms of Buddhist view and practice (Thögal visions for example). Now in our 'modern' pluralistic world the 'special case' of Dzogchen is taken to mean that it is an independent vehicle. In future it's claims to be a 'special case' will be proven by psychotherapists and not Buddhist logicians. Looking forward to that are we?
I know Dzogchen is profound - it is a profound communication that deconstructs because you are open to the logic of deconstruction. I don't really care whether or not Dzogchen is buddhist or not but for the sake of it's preservation it has to be expressed within the language of Buddhism - the language of deconstruction par excellance. If you think not then o.k.
If a master has dreams and these dreams contain teachings then these teachings must conform to the views as outlined in sutra and tantra. If your master has these dreams and they do conform with the teachings in sutra and tantra then you can feel sure that his teachings are genuine. My prayer is that the dreams, speech and intentions of future Dzogchen masters conform with the teachings of sutra and tantra.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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