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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Hi!
A few years ago I prematurely attended some teachings and empowerments that were given with lifetime daily practice commitments. Afterwards I struggeled immensely with these practices for maybe a half year of so, but they made no sense to me, and I ended up doing them out of guilt, and fear of vajra hell. Then I gave them up alltogether. Now I only try to follow the teachings of ChNN, do Guru Yoga when I remember, and other DC practices when I have time and energy, but I still fear negative consequenses for abandoning past practice commitments. This is due to the snake in the bamboo image. I find in unreasonable to go to Vajra hell just for attending some teachings. I might understand if it was do to some kind of practices that manipulated the pranas, etc., that if done wrongly might lead to madness, etc., but just for attending empowerments and teachings? It does not make sense. I was thinking at the time that going could only be a good thing, that nothing bad could come from attending. So this was my motivation. I did not know anything about the teacher, lineage, teachings, practices, etc. So in this case, what am I to do?


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Try not to worry about it so much.
The more you attend teaching with ChNN the more clear it will become that you are going to be ok and that Ati Guru Yoga is sufficient.
You can integrate all of your commitments into your practice of Guru Yoga.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:39 pm 
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Inge wrote:
Hi!
A few years ago I prematurely attended some teachings and empowerments that were given with lifetime daily practice commitments. Afterwards I struggeled immensely with these practices for maybe a half year of so, but they made no sense to me, and I ended up doing them out of guilt, and fear of vajra hell. Then I gave them up alltogether. Now I only try to follow the teachings of ChNN, do Guru Yoga when I remember, and other DC practices when I have time and energy, but I still fear negative consequenses for abandoning past practice commitments. This is due to the snake in the bamboo image. I find in unreasonable to go to Vajra hell just for attending some teachings. I might understand if it was do to some kind of practices that manipulated the pranas, etc., that if done wrongly might lead to madness, etc., but just for attending empowerments and teachings? It does not make sense. I was thinking at the time that going could only be a good thing, that nothing bad could come from attending. So this was my motivation. I did not know anything about the teacher, lineage, teachings, practices, etc. So in this case, what am I to do?


Don't worry about it at all. With Ati Guru Yoga you are going into the essence of all teachings.

M

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:59 pm 
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Inge wrote:
Hi!
A few years ago I prematurely attended some teachings and empowerments that were given with lifetime daily practice commitments. Afterwards I struggeled immensely with these practices for maybe a half year of so, but they made no sense to me, and I ended up doing them out of guilt, and fear of vajra hell. Then I gave them up alltogether. Now I only try to follow the teachings of ChNN, do Guru Yoga when I remember, and other DC practices when I have time and energy, but I still fear negative consequenses for abandoning past practice commitments. This is due to the snake in the bamboo image. I find in unreasonable to go to Vajra hell just for attending some teachings. I might understand if it was do to some kind of practices that manipulated the pranas, etc., that if done wrongly might lead to madness, etc., but just for attending empowerments and teachings? It does not make sense. I was thinking at the time that going could only be a good thing, that nothing bad could come from attending. So this was my motivation. I did not know anything about the teacher, lineage, teachings, practices, etc. So in this case, what am I to do?


Perhaps you misunderstood? Did the teacher tell you that you have to practice it every day or was it someone else?

/magnus

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
Try not to worry about it so much.
The more you attend teaching with ChNN the more clear it will become that you are going to be ok and that Ati Guru Yoga is sufficient.
You can integrate all of your commitments into your practice of Guru Yoga.


Malcolm wrote:

Don't worry about it at all. With Ati Guru Yoga you are going into the essence of all teachings.

M


Oh, that's a great relief to hear. Thank you both.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:09 pm 
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heart wrote:
Perhaps you misunderstood? Did the teacher tell you that you have to practice it every day or was it someone else?

/magnus

It was the teacher who told me, very specific. It was two empowerments with daily sadhana practice commitments, and one teaching with commitment to complete ngondro within 3 years. This was mentioned beforehand and I had to commit to this in order to be allowed to attend the teaching.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:26 pm 
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I have daily HYT practices which are not too arduous and once I know more I am sure will be fulfilled by daily practices recommended by ChNNR. I am already practising the Atiyoga.

Also, as Malcolm and ChNNR have kept on pointing out, Dzogchen is not dependent upon Buddhist Yanas, so I'm really moving towards understanding a potential unity than a certain divorce.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:33 pm 
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Inge wrote:
heart wrote:
Perhaps you misunderstood? Did the teacher tell you that you have to practice it every day or was it someone else?

/magnus

It was the teacher who told me, very specific. It was two empowerments with daily sadhana practice commitments, and one teaching with commitment to complete ngondro within 3 years. This was mentioned beforehand and I had to commit to this in order to be allowed to attend the teaching.


That is quite a lot at the same time I must say. I heard that Tulku Urgyen said that if you keep on practicing one Yidam, you will keep your samaya with all Yidams. I hope that helps you. ChNNR also teach various Ngondro's perhaps you could do one of those instead? Who was the Lama?

/magnus

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:

so I'm really moving towards understanding a potential unity than a certain divorce.


That is definitely the right attitude to have.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Inge wrote:
Hi!
A few years ago I prematurely attended some teachings and empowerments that were given with lifetime daily practice commitments. Afterwards I struggeled immensely with these practices for maybe a half year of so, but they made no sense to me, and I ended up doing them out of guilt, and fear of vajra hell. Then I gave them up alltogether. Now I only try to follow the teachings of ChNN, do Guru Yoga when I remember, and other DC practices when I have time and energy, but I still fear negative consequenses for abandoning past practice commitments. This is due to the snake in the bamboo image. I find in unreasonable to go to Vajra hell just for attending some teachings. I might understand if it was do to some kind of practices that manipulated the pranas, etc., that if done wrongly might lead to madness, etc., but just for attending empowerments and teachings? It does not make sense. I was thinking at the time that going could only be a good thing, that nothing bad could come from attending. So this was my motivation. I did not know anything about the teacher, lineage, teachings, practices, etc. So in this case, what am I to do?


Inge, first of all, don't worry!
I was also practising in Vajrayana Buddhism for 12 years before I joined DC. I also received some empowerments which included samaya practices for life time. But I also have talked with my Tantric teachers and they have clarified to me several times that it is enough to do one practice regularly, not all of them! For people who are in Dharma circles for many years, it is normal to have a big collection of transmissions, initiations, samayas etc. None can practise everything. One practice is more than enough for realization.
Also I have heard ChNN Rinpoche to explain that often.
There is no break of samayas this way. :smile:

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:34 am 
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Quote:
Don't worry about it at all. With Ati Guru Yoga you are going into the essence of all teachings.


The " Ati Guru yoga" proposed by ChNNR to keep all the samaya is defintely a smart shortcut, but to be effective you should be sure to really find yorself in the authentic rigpa state instead of something similar fabricate d by you mind...... ;)
Anyway The great siddha HH Dudjom Rinpoche advised to practice 21 one vajrasatva mantras every day to specifically purify the samaya of the initiation you received you don't practice every day.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:15 am 
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You're doing fine, Inge. Just keep learning and practicing. Adding to what's been said- and well said- doing ganapuja, if you can, is also a good way to mend samaya.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:31 am 
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If it is really freaking you out why don't you go tell the teacher you want to give back your commitments?
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Please consider if someone becomes dzogchen practitioner, his/her previous vajrayana commitments, (like Highest Yoga tantra), are not erased. So be carefull. Read for example: Treasury of Knowledge: Buddhist Ethics of Kngtril Lodro Thaye http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=11276


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Mariusz wrote:
Please consider if someone becomes dzogchen practitioner, his/her previous vajrayana commitments, (like Highest Yoga tantra), are not erased. So be carefull. Read for example: Treasury of Knowledge: Buddhist Ethics of Kngtril Lodro Thaye http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=11276


I don't think people are suggesting that those commitments are to be erased, but that certain Dzogchen practices may satisfy those practice commitments.

However, I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that if a Dzogchen practitioner wishes also to be a Buddhist HYT practitioner, then any Tantric Vows need to be kept for that purpose. HHDL has not needed to hand back his vows so I assume there is again a complementary relationship between Dzogchen and Buddhism, if that is what a person decides to do, but they are not interdependent or mutually exclusive.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:56 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:

All deity practices represent a method of trying to discover your primordial state. Also that is the purpose of Dzogchen. If you are doing the latter you don't need to do the former.

M


I don't understand how Dzogchen practice can erase your previous commitments and maybe this commitment is to another Dzogchen master.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:25 pm 
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LunaRoja wrote:
I don't understand how Dzogchen practice can erase your previous commitments and maybe this commitment is to another Dzogchen master.


The point is that from the Dzogchen perspective, all practices are automatically integrated (not erased) in the state of Ati Guru Yoga (although if we commit to Ngondro specifically, I'm sure we should complete it within three years).

Or as Magnus said earlier, according to Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, even in the view of Tantra an essential Yidam practice can include all other Yidam practices.

Because it is said that some have received so many Initiations and Transmissions that they couldn't possibly do all of those Sadhanas.


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Thu May 24, 2012 6:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:33 pm 
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LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

All deity practices represent a method of trying to discover your primordial state. Also that is the purpose of Dzogchen. If you are doing the latter you don't need to do the former.

M


I don't understand how Dzogchen practice can erase your previous commitments and maybe this commitment is to another Dzogchen master.



Who said anything about erase? One's comittment is to discover one's primordial state. As long as that remains your focus, there is no problem at all.

M

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http://www.bhaisajya.net
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http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:06 pm 
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I understand that there are two issues here, and my last post sought to express them:

1. Practice commitments up to and including HYT.

2. Tantric Vows.

Please could someone (Malcolm maybe?) be precise about how each of those two previous Vajrayana elements is satisfied in Dzogchen.

Which practice(s) fulfill HYT practice commitments?

Are any activities permitted within Dzogchen which would not be compatible with Tantric Vows, and if so, which takes precedence for the Dzogchen practitioner ?)

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:56 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:


Who said anything about erase? One's comittment is to discover one's primordial state. As long as that remains your focus, there is no problem at all.

M


To clarify my question a Lama who may or may not be a Dzogchen master gives a student an empowerment and states the samaya is to do the sadhana for the rest of one's life. The student decides to focus on discovering their primordial state instead of doing the sadhana. How does this fulfill their commitment?


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