Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 23, 2012 5:50 pm

kirtu wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:The president of Golden Dawn and current member of national parliament, Mihaloliakos, taking his dogs out for their afternoon walk.
images.jpg


This is truly frightening stuff. Why is radical nationalism making a come back in Russia, the Balkans and Greece?

Kirt



It is a symptom of the weakening of local economies under the forces of international globalization.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Konchog1 » Wed May 23, 2012 6:43 pm

Nemo wrote:Americans seem sane until you mention politics.

I find it interesting that Konchog would rather become a de facto Nazi than taste some people power Icelandic socialism. At least those Nazi's are not as evil as those scary women who kicked the bankers out of Iceland. FoX News must be blasting 24 hours a day on the 13 TV's he has in his house.

Nazi lovers in the 21st century. I'm loving the post modern irony of the whole thing. Why should the Greeks let the banks suck out the fruit of all their labour for the next two decades? It's not unfair if we all screw the banks together.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Wed May 23, 2012 7:14 pm

kirtu wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:The president of Golden Dawn and current member of national parliament, Mihaloliakos, taking his dogs out for their afternoon walk.
images.jpg


This is truly frightening stuff. Why is radical nationalism making a come back in Russia, the Balkans and Greece?

Kirt


Don't forget about France (Marine le Pen), Finland's True Finns (ponder the name!) and the Netherlands (Wilders). Those guys are fascists as well - suit-wearing types, sure enough, not boneheads - but fascists nonetheless. The whole Third Position talk is ridiculously easy to see through.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 23, 2012 7:22 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
kirtu wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:The president of Golden Dawn and current member of national parliament, Mihaloliakos, taking his dogs out for their afternoon walk.
images.jpg


This is truly frightening stuff. Why is radical nationalism making a come back in Russia, the Balkans and Greece?

Kirt


Don't forget about France (Marine le Pen), Finland's True Finns (ponder the name!) and the Netherlands (Wilders). Those guys are fascists as well - suit-wearing types, sure enough, not boneheads - but fascists nonetheless. The whole Third Position talk is ridiculously easy to see through.



Yes, it is Nationalist Socialism. But the causes of it are neo-liberalism at the core, the gutting of national economies and infrastructure in the interest of so called "free trade".

M
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed May 23, 2012 7:43 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
kirtu wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:The president of Golden Dawn and current member of national parliament, Mihaloliakos, taking his dogs out for their afternoon walk.
images.jpg


This is truly frightening stuff. Why is radical nationalism making a come back in Russia, the Balkans and Greece?

Kirt


Don't forget about France (Marine le Pen), Finland's True Finns (ponder the name!) and the Netherlands (Wilders). Those guys are fascists as well - suit-wearing types, sure enough, not boneheads - but fascists nonetheless. The whole Third Position talk is ridiculously easy to see through.


But in Greece and Hungaria its National-Socialism not the right extrem ... in Greece they are acting like muslim brothers, in one hand they help and protect old peoples and in the other hand they violently attack pakistanese and other foreigners.
One think I do not understand, maybe Greg can explain, because the extrem right is so strong, why they do not fight those nazis?

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Nemo » Wed May 23, 2012 7:51 pm

Konchog1 wrote:
Nemo wrote:Americans seem sane until you mention politics.

I find it interesting that Konchog would rather become a de facto Nazi than taste some people power Icelandic socialism. At least those Nazi's are not as evil as those scary women who kicked the bankers out of Iceland. FoX News must be blasting 24 hours a day on the 13 TV's he has in his house.

Nazi lovers in the 21st century. I'm loving the post modern irony of the whole thing. Why should the Greeks let the banks suck out the fruit of all their labour for the next two decades? It's not unfair if we all screw the banks together.
:namaste: As long as I'm anything but an 'anti-racist': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etAYFadObVY Not that I'm saying you're one.


Straw Man much?

We are experiencing a stagnation similar to the one the Soviet Union was in before they disintegrated. It will be easy to spot in retrospect. There will be many groups rising to fill the vacuum. We need to decide whether we go right wing, totalitarian and corporatist or libertarian socialist. Elites are funding the ultra right wing totalitarian side to turn themselves into unassailable oligarchs or plutocrats. The problem is the proletariat are pretty ignorant. Konchog is a prime example of what growing up in America can do to a thoughtful intelligent person. With only 6 corporation owning the media they don't really understand what is going on in the world.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Wed May 23, 2012 9:24 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
kirtu wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:The president of Golden Dawn and current member of national parliament, Mihaloliakos, taking his dogs out for their afternoon walk.
images.jpg


This is truly frightening stuff. Why is radical nationalism making a come back in Russia, the Balkans and Greece?

Kirt


Don't forget about France (Marine le Pen),


le Pen died and anyway we defeated him before he died as he had to moderate his rhetoric. Marine le Pen has moderated it even further. The National Front is still of course an anti-immigration party but they have been moved more to the center.

Finland's True Finns (ponder the name!)


didn't know about them .... are they real Nazi's or are they boys who just get drunk and steal tourists shoes in Helsinki in the winter?

and the Netherlands (Wilders).


I don't know how far right Wilders is. That's a concern but most Dutch don't typically make good fascists/nazis. Just look at their history. Anyway WIlders reminds me more of Joerg Haider - a concern but it'll die out.

The rising confrontation between right wingers and provoked young Muslim men in Germany is a concern.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Wed May 23, 2012 9:29 pm

Nemo wrote: With only 6 corporation owning the media they don't really understand what is going on in the world.


Cable TV with lots of foreign news subtitled and in English. Personally I don't like the English broadcasts so much but they're fine if you don't speak the language. In DC on MHZ we even used to have Israeli and Palestinian news back to back so you got both points of view from the source on the exact same things usually, within an hour.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed May 23, 2012 9:48 pm

kirtu wrote:
le Pen died and anyway we defeated him before he died as he had to moderate his rhetoric. Marine le Pen has moderated it even further. The National Front is still of course an anti-immigration party but they have been moved more to the center.


That is totally absolutely wrong. Le Pen father did'nt die, he is still there behind. Marine Le Pen has just repainted the façade to look more respectable, but they are exactely the same. She participate to neo-nazis events, she's still against stranger and in her movement there is still all the old faschists. She is in a strategy of conquest, that's all. She is even more dangerous so ... NEVER FORGET HITLER HAS BEEN ELECTED FIRST!


and the Netherlands (Wilders).


I don't know how far right Wilders is. That's a concern but most Dutch don't typically make good fascists/nazis. Just look at their history. Anyway WIlders reminds me more of Joerg Haider - a concern but it'll die out.


He is also dangerous, like MArine Le Pen he is undercover!

The rising confrontation between right wingers and provoked young Muslim men in Germany is a concern.

KIrt


And do not forget Hungaria which is in charge, and in his program there is The Great Hungaria ... it means war!

You all should open your eyes ... and remember how it went in Germany some 70 years ago!

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Wed May 23, 2012 10:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
kirtu wrote:This is truly frightening stuff. Why is radical nationalism making a come back in Russia, the Balkans and Greece?

Kirt


Don't forget about France (Marine le Pen), Finland's True Finns (ponder the name!) and the Netherlands (Wilders). Those guys are fascists as well - suit-wearing types, sure enough, not boneheads - but fascists nonetheless. The whole Third Position talk is ridiculously easy to see through.



Yes, it is Nationalist Socialism. But the causes of it are neo-liberalism at the core, the gutting of national economies and infrastructure in the interest of so called "free trade".


Quite true. As you said, it's capitalism's constitutive crises which drive people to embrace that desperate inanity. It was like that in the 1920s and the 1930s, it's like that now - in capitalism's late, and hopefully final, stage.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Wed May 23, 2012 10:41 pm

Sönam wrote:
kirtu wrote:
le Pen died and anyway we defeated him before he died as he had to moderate his rhetoric. Marine le Pen has moderated it even further. The National Front is still of course an anti-immigration party but they have been moved more to the center.


That is totally absolutely wrong. Le Pen father did'nt die, he is still there behind. Marine Le Pen has just repainted the façade to look more respectable, but they are exactely the same. She participate to neo-nazis events, she's still against stranger and in her movement there is still all the old faschists. She is in a strategy of conquest, that's all. She is even more dangerous so ... NEVER FORGET HITLER HAS BEEN ELECTED FIRST!


Oh my - I thought he died and that she had to adopt more moderate positions.

And do not forget Hungaria which is in charge, and in his program there is The Great Hungaria ... it means war!


What is this?

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Norwegian » Wed May 23, 2012 11:11 pm

Conservative Party of Norway have now just received the best poll results since 1909, and the populist/conservative liberalist party Progress Party had a slight reduction in same poll. However, both parties have in recent time openly discussed in media that it's likely that they may join forces in upcoming election to form a coalition government, an idea that not too long ago would've been rejected by both parties.

Whether they will receive enough votes to do that is a different story. But, the Socialist Left party and Labour Party have been heavily criticized here lately (these two plus Centre Party form current coalition government). Not only due to poor politics, but also due to corruption scandals one after another.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:59 pm

Well people, here are the final results for yesterday’s election here in sunny Greece:

New Democracy (Nea Dimokratia) 129 seats (includes the 50 seats bonus for taking the largest percentage of the vote) 29.66%
Union of Radical Left (Si.Riz.A) 71 seats 26.89%
Pan Hellenic Socialist Movement (Pa.So.K) 33 seats 12.28%
Independent Greeks (Aneksartiti Ellines) 20 seats 7.51%
Golden Dawn (Hrisi Avgi) 18 seats 6.92%
Democratic Left (Dimokratiki Aristera) 17 seats 6.26%
Communist Party of Greece (K.K.E.) 12 seats 4.5%
5.98% went to the remaining 7 parties
0.99% of the votes cast were invalid or intentionally left blank

And the winners, with 37.53%, were the 3,734,974 registered voters that did not bother voting!

New Democracy and PaSoK, being the two parties that have ruled Greece (read sucked Greece dry) interchangeably since 1975 are busily sharing out Ministries amongst themselves. Together they have 159 of the 300 seats available. It looks like Dimokratiki Aristera will also vie for a piece of the pie and share power with the other two parties. I imagine it depends on what positions are offered to them. The leader of Dimokratiki Aristera, Fotis Kouvelis, was a member of the Si.Riz.A but left when they did not give him the presidency of the union. If he enters into negotiations with New Democracy and PaSoK (the two parties which, along with the support of the party Popular Orthodox Rally (La.O.S.), voted in favor of the neo-liberal memorandum which has destroyed Greece) he will lose many supporters from within his party, many of which will probably return to Si.Riz.A.

So how long will this government last? Depends on if they continue to apply the memorandums or not. Both New Democracy and PaSoK promised their voters that they would renegotiate the terms of the memorandum. The question is will the IMF and the German government accept a renegotiation? Unlikely!

This cartoon from the Spanish press sums up the situation perfectly:
Who won - Spanish cartoon.jpg
Who won - Spanish cartoon.jpg (20.9 KiB) Viewed 638 times
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:22 pm

Greece was in Europa before the European Union, Greece will remain in Europa after the European Union ... European Union is only the world's finance rules. EU of/for peoples is still to be elaborated ...

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:28 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:So how long will this government last? Depends on if they continue to apply the memorandums or not. Both New Democracy and PaSoK promised their voters that they would renegotiate the terms of the memorandum. The question is will the IMF and the German government accept a renegotiation? Unlikely!


I agree. A year, at the very most, then total chaos again - which they may be tempted to quell by force. I sincerely hope they won't, but it seems a likely scenario.

Btw, the 'democracy' of those elections was a pure and utter farce, with the 99% of Western newspapers blaring on and on about how there's no actual choice for Greece, how rejecting the memorandum equals leaving Euro (or even EU) and how Greece leaving Euro must inevitably mean universal poverty and famine and war. It's a sad, stupid, terrifying joke.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Nemo » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:19 pm

I wish Greece would have defaulted and switched back to the drachma. Sure the first two to three years of trouble, but then the majority of defaulters are doing much better than those strangled under debt.

It was what I think the corrupt investors needed. Greece made the mistake of giving them time to scurry away and find some other way to exploit people without working. Now they are driving up the prices of essential commodities like food and fuel.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Indrajala » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:26 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:So how long will this government last? Depends on if they continue to apply the memorandums or not. Both New Democracy and PaSoK promised their voters that they would renegotiate the terms of the memorandum. The question is will the IMF and the German government accept a renegotiation? Unlikely!


I agree. A year, at the very most, then total chaos again - which they may be tempted to quell by force. I sincerely hope they won't, but it seems a likely scenario.

Btw, the 'democracy' of those elections was a pure and utter farce, with the 99% of Western newspapers blaring on and on about how there's no actual choice for Greece, how rejecting the memorandum equals leaving Euro (or even EU) and how Greece leaving Euro must inevitably mean universal poverty and famine and war. It's a sad, stupid, terrifying joke.


Joseph Tainter in his study on the collapse of civilizations points out that in times when there is great stress in a given civilization, the powers that be spend more resources on both legitimization and policing. This is but a quick fix because both activities require additional resources and once implemented become difficult to rescind, which consequently sees even greater stress placed on the system as a whole.

This is already being seen in numerous countries with contracting economies. More resources being spent on policing such as surveillance of citizens, militarization of civil police forces and extra-judicial powers be granted to security forces, along with legislation that makes it all quite legal. Think of how in numerous countries legislation is being rapidly passed that erases many civil freedoms, without much more than token internet protests in response.

As times goes on expect it to get worse and worse. Even non-violent protest will be met with crushing violence and propaganda that makes the repression sound necessary and justified.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Nemo » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:51 pm

Obama is the perfect example of how the myth of Democracy keeps people from revolting against the system. More right wing than Reagan, he accepts more from Goldman Sachs than any other candidate. The Dems, who are the voice of the left, take more from Wall Street than the Republicans. Try to vote against the banks. You can't.

The only thing that works is grass roots revolt that is so loud the people the elites put in power have to listen. Violence has to be avoided as that allows them to use the massive police state apparatus to crush anyone who speaks the truth.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:29 pm

One in two Police Officers voted for Golden Dawn

Electoral results show that many police officers (more than 50%) voted for [the neo-nazi political party] Golden Dawn.

This startling fact has come to light after a post-election analysis of the votes cast in electoral centers in the capital city Athens, especially in the suburbs of Ambelokipi and Kaisariani where approximately 5000 police officers, the majority of whom serve in police departments of the city of Athens, vote.

In the electoral precincts where police vote, the percentage of the vote that went to Golden dawn was between 17.2% to 23.04% [Golden Dawn gathered 6.97% of the vote at the national level], these were the highest ratios observed for any area within the capital of Greece. It is interesting to note that in the districts of Agios Panteleimon and Kipseli [ghettos where illegal immigrants are concentrated and where Golden Dawn acts as defacto law keeper], which are considered the strongholds of the organization Golden Dawn only managed to pull in 15 to 18% of the total vote! The analysis of the votes that Golden Dawn received in the 11 electoral precincts of central Athens made quite an impression.

In these areas [Ambelokipi and Kaisariani], due to special electoral catalogues, thousands of police that serve in the General Police Department of Attiki [the greater Athens area] and units like: Rapid Deployment Unit, the newly formed Motorcycle Police Unit, Security Units [undercover, drug squad, migrant affairs, etc.] and others are compelled to vote. These electoral precincts are situated close to the building which houses the headquarters of the Greek Police Force.
cops and neo nazis.jpg
Note that the thug with the Golden Dawn t-shirt is holding a wooden club and the officer is just casually sitting by! No problem! He's one of us!
cops and neo nazis.jpg (18.57 KiB) Viewed 610 times

Translated by me from the electronic newspaper Proto Thema. http://www.protothema.gr/ekloges/article/?aid=205308

Now, here in Greece, it is common knowledge that he police have a working relationship with Golden Dawn. They use Golden Dawn mamber as provocateurs during peaceful demonstrations in order to then justify the use of excessive violence. There is ample video and photgraphic footage that verifies this fact. So really, for many of us here in Greece, this article is just stating the obvious.

Just last week there was an article which reported that shopkeepers in an open weekly bazaar phoned police to report a series of thefts and robberies going on in the bazaar area and the police sent a group of Golden Dawn neo-nazi skinheads instead of investigating the matter themselves!!!

There is a huge problem here though. Golden Dawn members have been engaged in a barrage of physical attacks on immigrants recently (well always actually but they have stepped up their campaign of hatred) and last week leafleted an inner city area where there are gay bars and clubs with leaflets saying: "you are next". If more than half of the police force are active supporters of Golden Dawn what does this mean regarding the protection and safety of the man on "the street" if they are assaulted by Golden Dawn thugs? How can one expect the police force to act against the illegal activities of Golden dawn if they actively support them?

Last week, on public television, the press representative for Golden Dawn physically assaulted two women politicians (representatives from KKE and SiRizA) during a debate panel. According to Greek law the police have to find the perp. within 48 hours in order to arrest them. strangely enough, they could not find him, and now Kasidiaris is a member of parliament with the asylum that this affords him. He assaulted the women (after a heated exchange) because they asked him what happened with the assault case against him (he assaulted a professor and assaulted and knifed a leftist student at a university) that was meant to be tried the week before the elections.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:08 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:There is a huge problem here though. Golden Dawn members have been engaged in a barrage of physical attacks on immigrants recently (well always actually but they have stepped up their campaign of hatred) and last week leafleted an inner city area where there are gay bars and clubs with leaflets saying: "you are next". If more than half of the police force are active supporters of Golden Dawn what does this mean regarding the protection and safety of the man on "the street" if they are assaulted by Golden Dawn thugs? How can one expect the police force to act against the illegal activities of Golden dawn if they actively support them?


One can't. I wonder how widespread the problem is - and I'd risk saying that it's pretty much universal. Fascist sympathies of the police are a core feature of the political life in Central and Eastern Europe, at any rate: some of my friends are Polish squatters (currently living in Danzig), and they tell me that it's a pretty common practice for the Polish police to go so far as to offer free transport for NS activists - both after and before the riots they participate in.
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