Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed May 09, 2012 8:27 am

As for Greece ... this is an exemple to follow :

Image

In Iceland, the people has made the government resign, the primary banks have been nationalized, it was decided to not pay the debt that these created with Great Britain and Holland due to their bad financial politics and a public assembly has been created to rewrite the constitution.

And all of this in a peaceful way. A whole revolution against the powers that have created the current global crisis. This is why there hasn’t been any publicity during the last two years: What would happen if the rest of the EU citizens took this as an example? What would happen if the US citizens took this as an example.


Sönam
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed May 09, 2012 8:31 am

Infinite wrote:I thought it was a well-known fact that my nation shafted Greeks not only in the Junta but during liberation from the Nazis. Especially the island of Crete I had a friend from there and he almost didn't talk to me because I was American. Luckily I knocked that barrier down but still I can't believe the weird things I read on this site at times. I love this place but at times it feels like I am out in Outer Space or some nonsense. :spy:


The military government was given support by the United States as a Cold War ally, due to its proximity to the Eastern European Soviet bloc, and the fact that the previous Truman administration had given the country millions of dollars in economic aid to discourage Communism. US support for the junta, which was violently anti-communist, is claimed to be the cause of rising anti-Americanism in Greece during and following the junta's undemocratic rule.


a wikipedia about ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%931974

Sometime peoples have to open their eyes ... also when it hurts.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Konchog1 » Wed May 09, 2012 9:05 am

Sönam wrote:As for Greece ... this is an exemple to follow :

In Iceland, the people has made the government resign, the primary banks have been nationalized, it was decided to not pay the debt that these created with Great Britain and Holland due to their bad financial politics and a public assembly has been created to rewrite the constitution.

And all of this in a peaceful way. A whole revolution against the powers that have created the current global crisis. This is why there hasn’t been any publicity during the last two years: What would happen if the rest of the EU citizens took this as an example? What would happen if the US citizens took this as an example.


Sönam
Iceland is a very small homogenous country. It would be harder or impossible to happen elsewhere. You are right about the blackout and it's purpose of course.

Sönam wrote:In fact I made a mistake, you are a redneck and a fascist ... and because of that you cannot be a buddhist. What are you doing here? prepare the advent of a new ultra-right governement in Greece
Tolerance of everyone and their beliefs ... except these people. Liberate all sentient beings ... in a queue. Now serving socialists, now serving socialists.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 09, 2012 9:13 am

The guy talking in the video is Niko Mihaloliakou, President of Golden Dawn and below is a list of actions that he was either involved in or that he organised (and was officially legally accused of, but was never tried for, because he turned states evidence and received asylum).

26.1.1975: Attack by neo-Nazi extremists members of the group "New Order" at the National Technical University of Athens (the demonstrations and occupation of the university by students and their subsequent slaughter of 30 students when tanks and soldiers were sent in signaled the end of the junta in Greece) leading to the knifing of the student V. Gerogiadi.
16.2.1976: Bomb placed in the offices of the left wing of the Greek Communist Party.
24.3.1976: Hand grenade thrown into an Athens book store and dynamite placed in a suburban office of the Greek Communist Party.
14.9.1976: Weapons cache found in the hands of ex-military supporters of the Metaxas junta in Salonika.
16.12.1976: Mass beating, by junta supporters and police oficers, of reporters covering the funeral of the assassination of the juntas chief torturer E Mallios.
24.12.1976: Bomb placed by the Pan Hellenic National Socialist Organisation explodes in Greek Communist Party offices.
24.1.1977: Package bomb sent to the newspaper offices of "Avgi" by the Pan Hellenic National Socialist Organisation.
4.2.1977: Bomb explosion in an Athens bookstore that sold books, records and traditional products from Bulgaria.
5.2.1977: Three bomb explosions at two suburban offices of the left wing of the Greek Communist Party and one suburban office of the Greek Communist Party.
11.2.1977: Bomb planted at the bookshop "Planet". The neo-Nazi A. Kakkavia had previously issued a warning that he would plant the bomb.
19.2.1977: Bomb blast at the offices of the Cultural Centre of Pagkratio.
24.2.1977: Arrest of A. Kalentsi, A. Kakkavia and E. Christaki for possession of a weapons cache of machine guns, explosives and hand grenades. Kakkavia and Christaki confess to taking part in bombings.
4.3.1977: Bomb planted by Pan Hellenic National Socialist Organisation in the newspaper offices of the Greek Communist Party.
9.3.1977: Arrest of the members of the neo-Nazi organisation "August 4th" D, Iliopoulou and H. Zeikou for possession of firearms.
22.3.1977: Bomb blast destroys the vehicle of the general secratary of the Greek Socialist Democratic Youth D. Ksiritaki.
30.5.1977: Arrest of second lieutenant G. Diamanti for throwing a hand grenade into a bookstore with Bulgarian books. Is condemend to 8 years prison but only serves 5.
8.10.1977: A. Kalentsi is condemned to 12 years prison, A. Kakkavia to 2 years and E. Christaki to 18 months.
9.10.1977: Bomb explosion at the suburban office of the Communist Youth of Greece.
16.10.1977: Fire bombing of the offices of the newspaper "Avgi" by neo-Nazis.
5.3.1978: Bomb explosion at the offices of the magazine "Anti-".
6.3.1978: Bomb explosion at the suburban offices of the left wing of the Greek Communist Party.
10.3.1978: Bomb explosion in the cinema "Elli" during the screening of the Russian movie "Rainbow". 18 people are wounded, 3 of which very seriously.
20.6.1978: Bomb explosion in the cinema "Rex" during the screening of a Russian movie. 13 people are wounded
23.7.1978: A chain of thirteen bomb explosions in Athen and Pireaus during the fourth anniversary of the end of the militray junta.
31.7.1978: Arrest of Niko Mihaloliakou, along with 8 other neo-Nazis, as one of the bombers. They are charged with possession of explosives but not as terrorists (under the anti-terrorism law of 1978).

etc...

The guy in the photo below, G. Germenis, is the neo-Nazi thug in the video screaming at the reporters to stand up and honor Niko Mihaloliakou, and is now a democratically elected member of the Greek parliament.
Image
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 09, 2012 9:27 am

Konchog1 wrote:Tolerance of everyone and their beliefs ... except these people. Liberate all sentient beings ... in a queue. Now serving socialists, now serving socialists.
I notice you have a lot of time for neo-Nazis and was the person that posted the Golden Dawn video that started this conversation. Want to explain your point behind posting the video? Want to explain to me how I should be dealing with neo-Nazis?
:namaste:
PS Just saw a news item from a reporter in Germany, the video that Sonam posted of the "victory" speech (7% is a victory?) by the president of Golden Dawn has been banned for screening on public tv stations in Germany due to its Nazistic content.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Konchog1 » Wed May 09, 2012 9:38 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:Tolerance of everyone and their beliefs ... except these people. Liberate all sentient beings ... in a queue. Now serving socialists, now serving socialists.
I notice you have a lot of time for neo-Nazis and was the person that posted the Golden Dawn video that started this conversation. Want to explain your point behind posting the video? Want to explain to me how I should be dealing with neo-Nazis?
:namaste:
PS Just saw a news item from a reporter in Germany, the video that Sonam posted of the "victory" speech (7% is a victory?) by the president of Golden Dawn has been banned for screening on public tv stations in Germany due to its Nazistic content.
Q1 This is thread about Greek politics. Q2 Golden Dawn is a Greek political party that everyone's talking about. P1 We should discuss Golden Dawn.

"(4) Giving up love for sentient beings

Love is the wish for others to be happy and to have the causes for happiness. The downfall is wishing the opposite for any being, even the worst serial murderer - namely, wishing someone to be divested of happiness and its causes. The causes for happiness are fully understanding reality and the karmic laws of behavioral cause and effect. We would at least wish a murderer to gain sufficient realization of these points so that he never repeats his atrocities in future lives, and so eventually experiences happiness. Although it is not a tantric root downfall to ignore someone whom we are capable of helping, it is a downfall to think how wonderful it would be if a particular being were never happy.

(10) Being loving toward malevolent people

Malevolent people are those who despise our personal teachers, spiritual masters in general, or the Buddhas, Dharma, or the Sangha, or who, in addition, cause harm or damage to any of them. Although it is inappropriate to forsake the wish for such persons to be happy and have the causes for happiness, we commit a root downfall by acting or speaking lovingly toward them. Such action includes being friendly with them, supporting them by buying goods they produce, books that they write, and so on. If we are motivated purely by love and compassion, and possess the means to stop their destructive behavior and transfer them to a more positive state, we would certainly try to do so, even if it means resorting to forceful methods. If we lack these qualifications, however, we incur no fault in simply boycotting such persons."

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... edges.html
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 09, 2012 9:54 am

Well, you are going to have to excuse me while I direct my attention to the victims first.

Last year a bomb was placed in a trash can in a part of Athens that has become a ghetto for refugees. A mother and her two children (Iraqi refugees if I remember correctly. A 9-10 year old boy and a 12 year old girl) were doing their rounds of the trash cans searching for food to eat, when the bomb exploded killing the mother and the little boy and seriously wounding the litle girl.

Two weeks ago, in the same neighbourhood, a reckless ("Greek") driver knocked over a ("foreign") pedestrian crossing the road. When people came out of the cafe to see what had happened the driver got into an argument with them and drove off. He returned a while later armed with a pistol, walked into the cafe and shot two people. One of them ("Albanian") died and the other ("Pakistani") was seriously wounded.

etc...

Now these are the reported incidents. The volunteer organisation "Doctors of the World" receives countless injured people in their clinic situated within the ghetto. Attacks by armed neo-Nazi thugs on refugees. The crime of the victims? Wrong skin colour! So excuse me if I turn my compassionate and loving attention to the bleeding beaten victims of attacks rather than the perpetrators.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Konchog1 » Wed May 09, 2012 10:10 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Well, you are going to have to excuse me while I direct my attention to the victims first.

Last year a bomb was placed in a trash can in a part of Athens that has become a ghetto for refugees. A mother and her two children (Iraqi refugees if I remember correctly. A 9-10 year old boy and a 12 year old girl) were doing their rounds of the trash cans searching for food to eat, when the bomb exploded killing the mother and the little boy and seriously wounding the litle girl.

Two weeks ago, in the same neighbourhood, a reckless ("Greek") driver knocked over a ("foreign") pedestrian crossing the road. When people came out of the cafe to see what had happened the driver got into an argument with them and drove off. He returned a while later armed with a pistol, walked into the cafe and shot two people. One of them ("Albanian") died and the other ("Pakistani") was seriously wounded.

etc...

Now these are the reported incidents. The volunteer organisation "Doctors of the World" receives countless injured people in their clinic situated within the ghetto. Attacks by armed neo-Nazi thugs on refugees. The crime of the victims? Wrong skin colour! So excuse me if I turn my compassionate and loving attention to the bleeding beaten victims of attacks rather than the perpetrators.
:namaste:
But the perpetrators are going to hell, so they will be punished if that's your concern. If you think they deserve hell then okay whatever, but if you don't think they deserve it, shouldn't you have compassion for the poor perpetrators as well?

Of course they're evil murderers etc., but I'll fairly certain "all sentient beings" means all.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed May 09, 2012 10:31 am

Vajra understanding for compassion has nothing to do with the christic understanding of it.
a vajra practitioner has to protect those who are in danger for there life. And that's the case when nazis are involved, they are responsible for more than 6 millions peoples ... and the worst way. Even Buddha did kill the bandits to protect the travellers.
Even if we risk to accumulate bad karma, our samayas is to interfere against such suffering of many ... and this is also the way to help those who commit those violences against human life.

These Golden Dawn are nazis ... and proud of it

Image

there is no mistake

Image

and those who support them are collaborators

Sönam
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Konchog1 » Wed May 09, 2012 10:42 am

But who has such compassion? Who has the ability to kill without anger or pride? What are inferior beings like ourselves to do? Think in terms of us or them?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 09, 2012 11:03 am

Konchog1 wrote:But the perpetrators are going to hell, so they will be punished if that's your concern.
Punished? What in Buddhas name are you talking about? Hell is not about punishment. Being born in the hell realms is merely the natural consequence of actions commited with a mind full of anger/hatred. It is about as much a punishment as water having to run downhill.
If you think they deserve hell then okay whatever, but if you don't think they deserve it, shouldn't you have compassion for the poor perpetrators as well?
Of course they're evil murderers etc., but I'll fairly certain "all sentient beings" means all.
Who said anything about deserving something? I said that, right now, I prefer to focus on the victims than the perpetrators. Now, it may be a case of treating the symptoms and not the disease, I agree, but do you have any idea what would happen to me if I walked into a Golden Dawn office and said: "Look, I know you are suffering, but all you have to do is give up your ignorance and hatred and we could all live together in peace and love, brothers and sisters, a global group hug!"? You are either stupid or insane if you think that one's going to work. Of course I can feel compassion for their suffering and ignorance but will that stop them beating refugees? Does that mean that I should not be helping the refugees?

Get a grip Konchog, the "real" world just does not work like that!
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Wed May 09, 2012 7:18 pm

@GK and Sonam:

Actually, my objection to calling Stalinist Communism left-wing had nothing to do with the X-Y chart (which I'm not fond of at all). It was much simpler: Stalinism (or, for that matter, Maoism - or Leninism, or even Trotskyism) is by definition totalitarian and technocratic - and neither totalitarianism nor technocracy can be a part of any authentically left-wing outlook. Left-wing - according to my admittedly old-fashioned (but then I'm an old hippie) definition means:

1. (as far as economy is concerned) opposition to the institutionalized greed usually known as 'capitalism' - and support for some form of non-coercive and preferably decentred communalism.

2. (as far as social order goes) opposition to all rigid, self-preserving or self-augmenting hierarchies and all reified social mores or identities - and support for the initiatives that foster compassion (in the conventional sense of the word) and genuine responsibility.

Stalinism fails dismally in both cases. Unlike, say, (anarcho)syndicalism or social anarchism ( = libertarian socialism in the US), which would be properly left-wing outlooks according to such critetria.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed May 09, 2012 7:32 pm

And you can include pacifism, which is an engagement that is now widely accepted in the left alternative movement ... (apart the black block)

Sönam
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed May 09, 2012 7:46 pm

The reality is that we are witnessing a crisis of civilization that has multiple dimensions: a crisis of ecology, food, care, finance, and as José Saramago says, ethics and morality.

A crisis which puts on the agenda the inability of the capitalist system to meet the basic needs of the majority of the population and threatens the very survival of humanity.

Therefore, we are not in a passing crisis. The crisis is going to last. And there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Or worse yet, as argued by the philosopher Slavo Sizek, the light at the end of the tunnel has proved to be that of a train approaching us at full speed.

This is demonstrated by the rescue plans which have been applied to Greece, Portugal and Ireland, the adjustment measures of the Zapatero government and the cuts announced in many other countries of the European Union. We have a true “social war in Europe”. An offensive that seeks to end the few social rights that still exist in the continent, which companies consider a burden to their competitiveness in the global economy.

The crisis shows the urgent need to change the world from below. And this is the starting point for me to confront the ecological crisis, and do so from a radical anticapitalist and environmental perspective.

http://esthervivas.com/english/anti-capitalism-and-environmentalism-as-a-political-alternative/


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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 23, 2012 2:43 pm

Here are two examples of publications produced by Golden Dawn an an article (in Greek) by the president of Golden dawn (democratically elected member of the national parliament) about how Hitler is his "guiding light".
Image
Image
Now I fail to see how somebody that supports Hitler and his project, a project which was responsible for the death of over 300,000 Greek citizens could possibly be considered a Greek patriot. 300,000 died in Athens alone due to starvation as a consequence of the draining of resources by the Nazi regime and a policy of not allowing farming, fishing etc... during the three year occupation.
Image
The political ancestors of Golden Dawn were the Nazi collborators of WWII.
Image
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed May 23, 2012 2:59 pm

Sönam wrote:Vajra understanding for compassion has nothing to do with the christic understanding of it.
a vajra practitioner has to protect those who are in danger for there life. And that's the case when nazis are involved, they are responsible for more than 6 millions peoples ... and the worst way. Even Buddha did kill the bandits to protect the travellers.
Even if we risk to accumulate bad karma, our samayas is to interfere against such suffering of many ... and this is also the way to help those who commit those violences against human life.

These Golden Dawn are nazis ... and proud of it

Image

there is no mistake

Image

and those who support them are collaborators

Sönam


One image disappear ... there it is, so One can compare ...

Image
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 23, 2012 4:51 pm

The president of Golden Dawn and current member of national parliament, Mihaloliakos, taking his dogs out for their afternoon walk.
images.jpg
images.jpg (13.86 KiB) Viewed 864 times
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Nemo » Wed May 23, 2012 5:02 pm

Americans seem sane until you mention politics.

I find it interesting that Konchog would rather become a de facto Nazi than taste some people power Icelandic socialism. At least those Nazi's are not as evil as those scary women who kicked the bankers out of Iceland. FoX News must be blasting 24 hours a day on the 13 TV's he has in his house.

Nazi lovers in the 21st century. I'm loving the post modern irony of the whole thing. Why should the Greeks let the banks suck out the fruit of all their labour for the next two decades? It's not unfair if we all screw the banks together.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed May 23, 2012 5:35 pm

not to forget that what Greek are supposed to pay NOW is interests ... not the princiapl that still remain. So you bring peoples to the breakpoint only for financial interests. Is it not hard fascism?

Sönam
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Wed May 23, 2012 5:42 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The president of Golden Dawn and current member of national parliament, Mihaloliakos, taking his dogs out for their afternoon walk.
images.jpg


This is truly frightening stuff. Why is radical nationalism making a come back in Russia, the Balkans and Greece?

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