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Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:43 am


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:49 am

Greetings Tilt,

I could show you through the absence of any dependent origination suttas to use moha in the context of dependent origination, and I could show you that every usage of moha in the suttas is outside the explicit context of dependent origination/cessation.

Yet, I suspect you already know that to be the case and do not find that logic sufficiently convincing... therefore, since it's a case of omission, rather than what's explicitly said, it would involve trawling through the entire Sutta Pitaka simply to make this point, and I trust you do not expect that.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:56 am


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:07 am


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:07 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby cooran » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:59 am

Hello all,

Sutta references given within the dictionary definitions.

Moha
Moha [fr. muh, see muyhati; cp. Sk. moha & Vedic mogha] stupidity, dullness of mind & soul, delusion, bewilderment, infatuation D iii.146, 175, 182, 214, 270; Vin iv.144, 145; Sn 56, 74, 160, 638, 847; Vbh 208, 341, 391, 402; Pug 16; Tikp 108, 122, 259. -- Defd as "dukkhe aññāṇaŋ etc., moha pamoha, sammoha, avijj' ogha etc.," by Nd2 99 & Vbh 362; as "muyhanti tena, sayaŋ vā muyhati, muyhana -- mattaŋ eva vā tan ti moho" and "cittassa andha -- bhāva -- lakkhaṇo, aññāṇalakkhaṇo vā" at Vism 468. -- Often coupled with rāga & dosa as one of the 3 cardinal affects of citta, making a man unable to grasp the higher truths and to enter the Path: see under rāga (& Nd2 p. 237, s. v. rāga where the wide range of application of this set is to be seen). Cp. the 3 fires: rāg -- aggi, dos -- aggi, moh -- aggi It 92; D iii.217 also rāga -- kkhaya, dosa˚, moha˚ VbhA 31 sq. -- On combn with rāga, lobha & dosa see dosa2 and lobha. -- On term see also Dhs trsl. §§ 33, 362, 441; Cpd 16, 18, 41, 113, 146. -- See further D i.80 (samoha -- cittaŋ); Nd1 15, 16 (with lobha & dosa); VvA 14; PvA 3. -- amoha absence of bewilderment Vbh 210 (+alobha, adosa; as the 3 kusala -- mūlāni: cp. mūla 3), 402 (id., as kusala -- hetu). -- Cp. pa˚, sam˚.
-- antara (personal) quality of bewilderment (lit. having m. inside) Sn 478 (taken by C. as "cause of m.," i. e. ˚kāraṇa, ˚paccaya SnA 411; cp. antara=kāraṇa under antara I 2 b.). -- ussada quality of dullness Nd1 72, 413. -- kkhaya destruction of infatuation Vbh 73; VbhA 51. -- carita one whose habit is infatuation Nett 90 (+rāgacarita & dosacarita). -- tama the darkness of bewilderment MA 1. -- dhamma anything that is bewildering or infatuating Sn 276. -- pāruta covered or obstructed by delusion Pv iv.334. -- magga being on the road of infatuation Sn 347. -- salla the sting of bewilderment Nd1 59.
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... ali.146850

Avijjā: Ignorance, nescience, the blindness of not knowing, is synonymous with confusion moha (see mūla), is the primary & deepest root of all evil and suffering in the world, veiling man's mental eyes and preventing him from seeing the true nature of things. It is the confusion that fools beings by making life appear to them as permanent, happy, substantial and beautiful and preventing them from seeing that everything in reality is impermanent, liable to suffering, void of 'I' and 'mine', and basically impure see: vipallāsa. Ignorance is defined as not knowing the Four Noble Truths, namely, suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the way to its ceasing see: S. XII, 4.
As ignorance is the foundation of all life-maintaining actions, and the root of all evil and suffering, it therefore stands first in the formula of Dependent Origination paticca-samuppāda. But for that reason, says Vis.M XVII, 36f ignorance should not be regarded as the causeless root-cause of the world, since is not causeless. The cause of it is stated thus: With the arising of mental fermentations āsava there is the arising of ignorance M. 9. But there is a figurative way in which it can be treated as a root-cause; namely, when it is made to serve as a starting point in an exposition of the Round of Existence... As it is said: No first beginning of ignorance can be perceived, Bhikkhus, before which ignorance was not, and after which it came to be. But it can be perceived that ignorance has its specific causal condition idappaccaya A. X, 61. The same statement is made A. X, 62 about the craving for existence bhava-tanhā (see tanhā). Craving and ignorance are called the outstanding causes or creators of the kamma that lead to unhappy and happy destinies Vis.M XVII, 38.
As ignorance still exists though in a very refined way until the attainment of Arahatship, it is counted as the last of the 10 mental chains samyojana, which bind beings to the cycle of rebirths. As the first two roots of evil, greed and hate (see: mūla), are on their part rooted in ignorance, consequently all disadvantageous states of mind are inseparably bound up with ignorance. Ignorance or confusion is the most obstinate , dense, deep, subtle, hidden and fearsome of the three roots of evil.
Ignorance is one of the fermentations āsava and latent tendencies anusaya. It is often called a hindrance nīvarana e.g. in S.XV, 3; A.X, 61 but does not appear together with the usual list of five hindrances. It is however immanent in them all, yet especially dominant in doubt & uncertainty vicikicchā.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... .htm#avijjā

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:37 am

What came first the chicken or the egg?

I mean what substantive difference does it make to ones practice if the two terms are considered synonymous as opposed to there being considered a causal relationship between the two terms?

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:37 am


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:36 am


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:41 am

What I am not following is the "If moha ends momentarily (because it is replaced by panna), sankharas do not cease, vinnana does not cease etc"

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:44 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:50 am


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:53 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:59 am


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:02 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:05 am


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:11 am

For example, a Christian may do something motivated by generosity and love. These actions are rooted in non-moha (non-delusion). Yet, this hypothetical Christian is completely oblivious to the Four Noble Truths (avijja) and has not fully penetrated them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:20 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:23 am


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:26 am



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