Curious Treasury ...

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Curious Treasury ...

Postby Sönam » Tue May 22, 2012 4:20 pm

I start to translate, in a parallel life, the Precious Treasury of Pith Instructions of Longchen Rabjam. I am more than surprize to found such assertion ...
To the light of our recent discussion it's quite ... incredible

FAULTY RELIANCE

Associating with such practitioners of inferior character has six drawbacks:
Simply seeing them erodes your own renunciation and faith.
Simply hearing them propels you far from the path to liberation.
Simply thinking of them sows the seeds of samsara.
Simply having contact with them causes blessings and spiritual attainment to fade.
Simply talking with them diminishes your pure outlook and devotion.
They contaminate all of your spiritual connections with the blessings of maras.
After their death, they fall into a hellish state of constant torment.
THerefore, avoid such unfortunate practitioners.

SIGNS OF INFERIOR PRACTITIONERS

There are six indications of the character of such inferior practitioners:
Far from being spiritual, they are baser than ordinary people.
Far from following the teachings, they are baser than the most dishonorable people.
Far from being Mahayana practitioners, they are baser than those who hold exterme views.
Far from being real practitioners, they are baser than people who commit harmful actions.
Far from cultivating view and meditation, they areas distant from the dharma as the earth is from the heavens.
They are thieves of the teachings, only pretending to be practitioners of the dharma.
Avoid them, for they take peaople with faith down the wrong path, one that leads to lower realms.


:offtopic:
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Pero » Tue May 22, 2012 4:31 pm

Why are you surprised?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Sönam » Tue May 22, 2012 4:41 pm

Pero wrote:Why are you surprised?


This is not a Dzogchen teachings ... even not a Vajrayana teaching

Simply seeing them erodes your own renunciation and faith.
Simply hearing them propels you far from the path to liberation.
Simply thinking of them sows the seeds of samsara.
...


this is a teaching for mental retarded ... witch bashing

:stirthepot:
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Pero » Tue May 22, 2012 4:44 pm

Sönam wrote:
Pero wrote:Why are you surprised?


This is not a Dzogchen teachings ... even not a Vajrayana teaching

Simply seeing them erodes your own renunciation and faith.
Simply hearing them propels you far from the path to liberation.
Simply thinking of them sows the seeds of samsara.
...


this is a teaching for mental retarded ...

Why?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Sönam » Tue May 22, 2012 4:49 pm

Just because you see practitioners of inferior character you erode your own renunciation and faith ... did you?
Just because you hear them propels you far from the path to liberation ... does it?

and so on ... that's a teaching that fit for you?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Pero » Tue May 22, 2012 4:57 pm

Sönam wrote:Just because you see practitioners of inferior character you erode your own renunciation and faith ... did you?
Just because you hear them propels you far from the path to liberation ... does it?

I don't know. I don't know if I've met such a person. But in any case, you're a little naive if you quickly jump to "no". Such things may not happen all at once, but constant exposure might eventually do these things.

and so on ... that's a teaching that fit for you?

Yes.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Sherlock » Tue May 22, 2012 5:15 pm

Is there anything in the context that would indicate that he is talking about samaya-breakers or those who otherwise just make use of the teachings for their personal gain?
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Adamantine » Tue May 22, 2012 5:25 pm

Sherlock wrote:Is there anything in the context that would indicate that he is talking about samaya-breakers or those who otherwise just make use of the teachings for their personal gain?


I would say the latter automatically fall into the category of the former. . .
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Bhusuku » Tue May 22, 2012 5:42 pm

Sherlock wrote:Is there anything in the context that would indicate that he is talking about samaya-breakers

I was also wondering about that. Because otherwise, one could conclude that Longchenpa is talking about Hinayana practitioners (i.e. Theravadins).
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Adamantine » Tue May 22, 2012 6:32 pm

Bhusuku wrote:
Sherlock wrote:Is there anything in the context that would indicate that he is talking about samaya-breakers

I was also wondering about that. Because otherwise, one could conclude that Longchenpa is talking about Hinayana practitioners (i.e. Theravadins).


Where in the world would you get the notion that this list refers to Theravadan or "hinayana" Buddhists? That is absurd.
Far from being spiritual, they are baser than ordinary people.
Far from following the teachings, they are baser than the most dishonorable people.
Far from being Mahayana practitioners, they are baser than those who hold exterme views.
Far from being real practitioners, they are baser than people who commit harmful actions.
Far from cultivating view and meditation, they areas distant from the dharma as the earth is from the heavens.
They are thieves of the teachings, only pretending to be practitioners of the dharma.
Avoid them, for they take peaople with faith down the wrong path, one that leads to lower realms.


To me this list sounds like a rare type of person who dresses up and pretends to be a practitioner or a spiritual teacher while they lie, steal, and derive sexual gratification from those gullible enough to believe them. In other words: criminals and con-artists. You could probably find this type of person in any Buddhist tradition, and in any religious or 'spiritual' tradition. It is true, that it seems to be common-sense to avoid such people. But I think with the Mahayana message of equanimity and love for all- some may feel that they should not avoid such people as an expression of that, etc. So perhaps Longchenpa's teaching is clarifying this, and saying it is better to keep distance completely.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Sönam » Tue May 22, 2012 6:51 pm

He speaks of samaya-breakers. Just before he says ...

ENVIOUS PRACTITIONERS

Spiritual practitioners who are envious have six failings:
They want more gain, wealth, and opportunity than others.
They want larger retinues and more students.
No matter how much merit they have, they want to gather more.
They want the banner of their renown to be raised throughout the land.
They want to be unique and unquestionably superior to everyone else.
They do not want others to have even a single thing that they do not have.
Such practitioners have been pierced by the flowered arrows of Kamadeva.


... so it is not nice, but, in my opinion, not to the point that
"Simply seeing them erodes your own renunciation and faith.
Simply hearing them propels you far from the path to liberation.
Simply thinking of them sows the seeds of samsara."


or if it does you better question your self about your motivations ... not very Ati.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby heart » Tue May 22, 2012 7:12 pm

Sönam wrote:He speaks of samaya-breakers. Just before he says ...

ENVIOUS PRACTITIONERS

Spiritual practitioners who are envious have six failings:
They want more gain, wealth, and opportunity than others.
They want larger retinues and more students.
No matter how much merit they have, they want to gather more.
They want the banner of their renown to be raised throughout the land.
They want to be unique and unquestionably superior to everyone else.
They do not want others to have even a single thing that they do not have.
Such practitioners have been pierced by the flowered arrows of Kamadeva.


... so it is not nice, but, in my opinion, not to the point that
"Simply seeing them erodes your own renunciation and faith.
Simply hearing them propels you far from the path to liberation.
Simply thinking of them sows the seeds of samsara."


or if it does you better question your self about your motivations ... not very Ati.

Sönam



Sure, Longchenpa didn't know anything about Ati. He was not a Westerner with our fabulous and superior understanding of everything, so how could he? :smile:
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Sönam » Tue May 22, 2012 7:22 pm

heart wrote:
Sure, Longchenpa didn't know anything about Ati. He was not a Westerner with our fabulous and superior understanding of everything, so how could he? :smile:


I'm missing the profound sense of your remark ...

:shrug:
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby pemachophel » Tue May 22, 2012 7:36 pm

Sonam,

I read this as a caution to oneself not to become such a bad practitioner. As such, I think it is very good teaching and one that should be taken sincerely to heart. :namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Sönam » Tue May 22, 2012 7:55 pm

Ok, so I'm the only one to found it ... disproportionate

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby heart » Tue May 22, 2012 8:28 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:
Sure, Longchenpa didn't know anything about Ati. He was not a Westerner with our fabulous and superior understanding of everything, so how could he? :smile:


I'm missing the profound sense of your remark ...

:shrug:
Sönam


Just pulling your leg old man. :smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue May 22, 2012 8:37 pm

Sonam, are you following the SMS training? It may seem a silly question, but if

1. Yes --> then the problem isn't new, is it?
2. No --> then you'll find more of the same on the first pages of The Book.

Whether you choose 1. or 2., I'd suggest you go and talk to an instructor about it.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Josef » Tue May 22, 2012 8:38 pm

pemachophel wrote:Sonam,

I read this as a caution to oneself not to become such a bad practitioner. As such, I think it is very good teaching and one that should be taken sincerely to heart. :namaste:


Seconded.
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Sönam » Tue May 22, 2012 8:51 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:
Sure, Longchenpa didn't know anything about Ati. He was not a Westerner with our fabulous and superior understanding of everything, so how could he? :smile:


I'm missing the profound sense of your remark ...

:shrug:
Sönam


Just pulling your leg old man. :smile:

/magnus


I'm running :smile:

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Curious Treasury ...

Postby Sönam » Tue May 22, 2012 8:56 pm

It is certainly very much 9 yanas approach ... for a treasure

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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