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the great rebirth debate - Page 91 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:31 pm

Thanks for the links B & S, will read later.

:anjali:

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:13 pm

Very skillfully put Norman.

The answers are in my view

1) Without doubt. A number of Suttas show him teaching punabhava post mortem beyond any reasonable interpretation of either English or Pali.
To doubt that is to say that he taught something that could be easily misunderstood as post mortem Rebirth without addressing the issue of possible ambiguity.
In reality he was not ambiguous at all. He taught post mortem Rebirth, just as the overwhelming majority of teachers and commentators for 2500 years have taught that he did .

2) He taught it A) because it is the truth of the human condition as he saw it. And B) As an incentive to transcend that condition.

3) Not as clearly an issue as might at first appear. Gravity operates whether i believe in it or not.

4) Clearly belief in Rebirth is not an absolute necessity in order to practice effectively.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Can you be a Buddhist and not believe in reincarnation?

Postby Cloud » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:07 am

To the OP, these are my understandings, though some would contest them:

Here-and-Now Rebirth: The moment to moment rebirth/arising of unwholesome mental states based on Ignorance. Collectively we call this cycle of rebirths "Samsara", and it is Samsara we seek to escape. Through understanding Impermanence, Karma (conditionality), Dukkha and how it arises (Dependent Origination), we are shown a path where we might apply skillful means toward the cultivation of wholesome conditions that will lead to our awakening/liberation in this life.

Post-Mortem Rebirth:
Combined with Nihilistic View = Wrong View that nothing persists after death, no continuity of life or consciousness. This is in opposition to the Buddha's teachings and can lead to depression, immoral/unethical actions, and suicide.

Combined with Eternity View = Wrong View that one is reborn numerous times, identified with "my future rebirths" or "my past rebirths", both of which imply a personal rebirth ("I", "mine") or ownership of the consciousness which gives rise to life. This is in opposition to the doctrine of no-self and makes detachment from a view/doctrine of self more difficult, as well as lessening the immediacy of liberation from dukkha in the here-and-now.

Right View = Consciousness is a condition for life; gives rise to new life. Upon dissolution of the aggregates, this consciousness (if still with Ignorance) constitutes new life. This "rebirth" is impersonal; selfless. It is not "you", nor do you own the consciousness or lives that preceded or succeed "your life" (nor even that).

The trend has been a move further and further from the Middle Way toward an eternity view.
Last edited by Cloud on Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can you be a Buddhist and not believe in reincarnation?

Postby SamKR » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:21 am


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Aloka
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Re: Can you be a Buddhist and not believe in reincarnation?

Postby Aloka » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:57 am


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Re: Can you be a Buddhist and not believe in reincarnation?

Postby Sanghamitta » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:32 am

I think to take an agnostic view of Rebirth is absolutely legitimate and to concentrate on meditation practice , sila and so on. While not forgetting that important part of the 8FP is Saddha.


What is not legitimate and is in fact flying in the face of the facts is to say the Buddha did not teach post mortem Rebirth. He did. Over and over. Using a variety of metaphors and illustrations as well as plainly spoken literal descriptions pf the process. No one until modern times ever questioned that he taught it. Are we supposed to believe that Buddhism got a key doctrine wrong for 2400 years but luckily a tiny few have now put us right ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Aloka
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Re: Can you be a Buddhist and not believe in reincarnation?

Postby Aloka » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:51 am

Personally I have never disputed that the Buddha taught rebirth.


:anjali:


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