clarify #5 in TOS

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clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Will » Mon May 21, 2012 9:06 pm

It now says:

5. When quoting authors or texts please cite a source.

We don't want to accidentally plagiarize other peoples' work. Please provide a website address when applicable if your information is taken from a website. Do not simply copy and paste an entire article. It is best to copy and paste only a few sentences that are appropriate and then discuss how it is important and cite the source. You may use any text or images that are considered Fair Use or not copyrighted or if they are in the public domain, especially those items which are freely given, such as those at most Dharma websites and are used here for non-commercial purposes as all information here is non-commercial and ad free.


Two links & only the links were given to specific pages from the non-cut & paste Google books. No cutting & pasting was done (per ToS) and a website address was given (per ToS). Kindly make crystal in the ToS (if you must continue this book-link-deletetion practice) what is & is not permitted regarding book title or content links.
Revealing one essence: this means the inherently pure, complete, luminous essence, which is pure of its own nature. -- Fa-tsang
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Mr. G » Mon May 21, 2012 9:14 pm

Will,

The idea is if a teacher, or author has published a book and it is not free, this forum doesn't allow links that direct to those books. If a link to a book by Hsuan Hua was posted, and the book wasn't free, why would we want to link to it? If someone posted a link to a book by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu that has been pirated, I would not appreciate that, nor would he, or any students of his. People can provide the citation by copying it, or directing people to the book and page number. People can even say "go to Scribd", it's there. Or even PM the person if need be.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon May 21, 2012 9:22 pm

But aren't all Google-book previews authorized by the publishers?

Or is it implied here that the authors themselves would not appreciate that large portions of their writings are up for preview on Google, despite the publisher's authorization of it?
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Will » Mon May 21, 2012 9:26 pm

Mr. G wrote:Will,

The idea is if a teacher, or author has published a book and it is not free, this forum doesn't allow links that direct to those books. If a link to a book by Hsuan Hua was posted, and the book wasn't free, why would we want to link to it? If someone posted a link to a book by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu that has been pirated, I would not appreciate that, nor would he, or any students of his. People can provide the citation by copying it, or directing people to the book and page number. People can even say "go to Scribd", it's there. Or even PM the person if need be.


Mr G: Nearly all books, Dharma or otherwise, are for sale. There are many that at the same time are online for free. Master Hua's are among those, so are Rulu's translation - books for sale, yet online for free. I can give many more examples. This rule of yours makes no sense and since it is not explicit in the TOS, I appeal to the entire Mod Squad for clarification.

Copyright free use was not abused by Lhug-pa's links; so until publishers' lawyers begin to threaten Dharma Wheel, I see no reason to over-moderate.
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon May 21, 2012 9:32 pm

IMO, allowing people to tell others to go to ScribD is more of a disservice to the original author than posting a direct link to a Google-book preview could possibly be; considering that the latter does not provide the contents of the entire book.
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Nemo » Mon May 21, 2012 10:26 pm

Fair Use Notice

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material
available in our efforts to advance understanding of spiritual, environmental, political issues, etc.

We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' (educational, criticism, etc) of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

In Canada it's even easier;
Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.

Moderating so proactively may be a too far in the direction of micromanagement. Let people make their own decisions.
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 21, 2012 10:47 pm

Nice idea but copyright and defamation actions may be taken using the laws of any country where the material may be viewed .

Usually if sites remove the material then all is well but please be under no illusion that the laws of any one country prevail . ;)

This makes it imperative to honour the wishes of the author and publisher and if not known err on the side of caution.
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Will » Mon May 21, 2012 11:03 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:Nice idea but copyright and defamation actions may be taken using the laws of any country where the material may be viewed .

Usually if sites remove the material then all is well but please be under no illusion that the laws of any one country prevail . ;)

This makes it imperative to honour the wishes of the author and publisher and if not known err on the side of caution.


Do you have examples of Dharma sites being told by publishers to pull links to their books? And if a link is pulled, that is that - unless you know of examples where the publisher followed up with a lawsuit.
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Mr. G » Mon May 21, 2012 11:19 pm

A couple of points:

Lhug-Pa,

The link you provided did not look like the sample pages provided by Google books - it seemed like a backdoor to the full book. I have no problem if a quote is found from the sample pages. Of course a link to the sample page is fine. I apologize if that mistake was made in haste.

Will,

Not everything written by Hsuan Hua is for free. Not everything written by his students are free. The point is, if a book gets published and the intent is to sell it, we dissuade members from providing a link. I'm sure I don't have to explain further than that. The idea is not to wait for an author to make a request to this site to take down a book, but to show the common courtesy that we don't provide an avenue for free material that isn't meant to be free. There are throughout these forums links to full books which I and other moderators have missed, or ignored I'm sure. However, I will say this - I personally will not allow books by ChNNR, H.H. Sakya Trizin, Al Bloom, Dennis Hirota, and some others to be linked to on this forum.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Nemo » Tue May 22, 2012 12:48 am

Blue Garuda wrote:Nice idea but copyright and defamation actions may be taken using the laws of any country where the material may be viewed .

Usually if sites remove the material then all is well but please be under no illusion that the laws of any one country prevail . ;)

This makes it imperative to honour the wishes of the author and publisher and if not known err on the side of caution.


Copyright and defamation are unrelated laws. The precedent in International Law is that the law of the land where the server is physically located prevail. This has been challenged and upheld in the US and Canada. The exceptions for educational and critical purposes are quite clear. As long as the poster comments on the excerpt and accredits the original source it meets the burden of those exceptions and is fair use currently. Additionally web sites cannot be held liable for hot links.

The problem of UK libel tourism was addressed by the Free Speech Protection Acts of 2008 and 2009. Since the server is located in Roseville Michigan they are protected from libel as well.
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Will » Tue May 22, 2012 1:54 am

I gather from Mr G's response that there will be no clarification in the wording of TOS #5. We will just have to remember his no-no list of -

I personally will not allow books by ChNNR, H.H. Sakya Trizin, Al Bloom, Dennis Hirota, and some others to be linked to on this forum.


I personally will be most careful about linking to "some others". :reading:
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 22, 2012 2:21 am

Will wrote:I gather from Mr G's response that there will be no clarification in the wording of TOS #5.


What further clarification would you like? Use common sense and don't link to books that aren't free. Copy small passages of a book instead of an entire chapter. Sample passages from Google books is fine. Bottom line is, show common courtesy to the authors of books who don't distribute for free.

We will just have to remember his no-no list of -

I personally will not allow books by ChNNR, H.H. Sakya Trizin, Al Bloom, Dennis Hirota, and some others to be linked to on this forum.


I personally will be most careful about linking to "some others". :reading:


Your sarcasm notwithstanding, read between the lines Will - don't post links to books that aren't distributed freely.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Will » Tue May 22, 2012 3:04 am

Mr G: What further clarification would you like?

Words in #5 TOS that do not require common sense or reading between the lines, but are explicit.

"Links to free books are OK; links to books that are not free are not OK. The exceptions are {fill in with Mr Gs list}. These authors must never be linked to."

Is that too much to ask?
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby catmoon » Tue May 22, 2012 11:32 am

A Buddhist principle is that one should not take what has not been given. Thus I think we cannot allow links to material unless it can be shown that express permission to copy has been given by the author.
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Re: Never Mind

Postby Will » Tue May 22, 2012 1:55 pm

catmoon wrote:A Buddhist principle is that one should not take what has not been given. Thus I think we cannot allow links to material unless it can be shown that express permission to copy has been given by the author.


This will be my last on this rapidly getting ridiculous thread.

Nagarjuna, Buddha Gautama and many more sages are dead, nor did they even write, in English no less, the works attributed to them; so "express permission" will be difficult for any non-channeller to get.
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby Blue Garuda » Tue May 22, 2012 2:11 pm

Nemo wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:Nice idea but copyright and defamation actions may be taken using the laws of any country where the material may be viewed .

Usually if sites remove the material then all is well but please be under no illusion that the laws of any one country prevail . ;)

This makes it imperative to honour the wishes of the author and publisher and if not known err on the side of caution.


Copyright and defamation are unrelated laws. The precedent in International Law is that the law of the land where the server is physically located prevail. This has been challenged and upheld in the US and Canada. The exceptions for educational and critical purposes are quite clear. As long as the poster comments on the excerpt and accredits the original source it meets the burden of those exceptions and is fair use currently. Additionally web sites cannot be held liable for hot links.

The problem of UK libel tourism was addressed by the Free Speech Protection Acts of 2008 and 2009. Since the server is located in Roseville Michigan they are protected from libel as well.


That's interesting ,especially with so much in the 'cloud' shuffling about from server to server. Yes they are unrelated laws - I gave them as two examples. Just don't try it in Singapore, folks, or anywhere else you think may stick up two fingers to US views on the law, and slap on the cuffs. LOL :)

I do think that a good point has been made by Will in that the dead being called Shakyamuni is unlikely to sue - except maybe for misrepresentation! :)
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Re: clarify #5 in TOS

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue May 22, 2012 5:03 pm

I agree with Fair Use and also the wording in the TOS. But having said that I also feel that as long as we remove any copyright when someone complains about it or when the copyright holder notifies us and requests for us to do so, then we are okay. I think the only legal issues come when a site ignores requests to take it down from others or especially from the copyright holder.
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