Dzogchen and Buddhism

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sat May 19, 2012 7:00 pm

. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

pemachophel
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby pemachophel » Sat May 19, 2012 7:04 pm

Blue Garuda,

Your point is well taken regarding new and old terma, true and false terma, i.e., "orthodoxy is what I believe, heterodoxy is what you believe." From a Tibetan POV, I think we'd have to call the revealed Mormon scriptures terma. Within Tibetan Buddhism, Tertons, such as Kunkhyen Jigme Ling and, more recently, Pegyal Lingpa, commonly practice their terma for some years before revealing them to others. This is called ter-drub. They practice to insure the results are there as expected. While new terma are said to have great blessings because they are still warm from the Dakinis' breath (i.e., have lots of uncorrupted blessings), some practitioners wait to see whether other practitioners are consistently getting results before adopting a new terma. As Ju Mipham pointed out, not all teachings claiming to be terma are authentic and produce reliable results. Ju Mipham cautioned reticence in accepting new terma. On the other, if one has great faith in the Terton, such as I have in Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, one may not wait and throw oneself directly into the practice. Vajrayana is not without risk. :namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat May 19, 2012 7:18 pm

Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Sat May 19, 2012 7:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

pemachophel
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby pemachophel » Sat May 19, 2012 7:18 pm

A couple of days ago, someone brought up Thomas Merton, the famous Trappist monk, and Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche, suggesting that, if Merton had lived, he would have gone back to Chatral Rinpoche and Chatral Rinpoche would have taught him Dzogchen without necessarily asking Merton to take Refuge, etc. Because Merton died and did not go back to Chatral Rinpoche, we'll never know, but I personally doubt this. Merton sought teachings from another Lama during his trip to India (sorry, I forget this Lama's name). The Lama asked Merton if he believed in reincarnation. I believe Merton said no. The Lama was going to give Merton the practice of phowa, but, based on Merton's answer, decided not to. It seems to me that this Lama saw that Merton was going to die soon, otherwise phowa would seem like a strange teaching to give as their first formal teaching. To me, I've always thought this story suggests that Merton had gone as far as he could go in terms of Buddhism/Dzogchen in that life and that, to go farther, he would have to be reborn (with a "cleaner slate"). In any case, knowing what I know about Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche, I find the previous respondents hypothesis unlikely. :namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2012 7:29 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Blue Garuda
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Blue Garuda » Sat May 19, 2012 7:34 pm

Last edited by Blue Garuda on Sat May 19, 2012 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DGA
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby DGA » Sat May 19, 2012 7:35 pm

This is a tangent at best, but...

Blake was a radical and a dissenter in the 17th century tradition (see Hill's _The World Turned Upside-Down_). He read Swedenborg, and disagreed with him as often as he agreed.

Did he not believe that Stonehenge had been used for human sacrifice prior to the advent of Christianity? I'm skeptical he would have celebrated the ancient Druids (just as in the Four Zoas when he invites the Jews to convert to Christianity)

best regards,
the guy who used to post as "thegiantalbion" (from the four zoas) on e-sangha

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Paul
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Paul » Sat May 19, 2012 7:41 pm

Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sat May 19, 2012 8:53 pm

. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Sat May 19, 2012 8:55 pm

I was just reading tonight (GMT+2), "You are the eyes of the World", which a translation of Longchen Rabjam's commentary on the kun byed rgyal po. It has been translated by old students of ChNN and a Textual Introduction has been signed by Rinpoché.
Merrill Peterson, which is one of the translators, did introduced the text so ...

"This text presents the theory and practice of one of the most direct and wholistic teachings of buddhisma. Written in the early fourteenth century, the text is arranged as a guide to the meaning of an earlier tantra, the kun byed rgyal po, which was translated from an Indian language in the eighth century by the master Sri Simha and the Tibetan monk Vairocana.
Though it comes to us through the buddhist tradition, the real import of this teaching is not dogmatic. Dzogchen has no cultural bias or limitation, it is not bound up in words and language, and it cannot be fully understood with concepts. Dzogchen practitioners can be found not only outside of the odest school of Tibetan buddhism (which is usually thought to house this teaching) but even outside of buddhism. ..."

So it's seems that the approach developped in this thread is shared in the Dzogchen Community for a long long time ... and supported by Rinpoché himself.

Adjust your seat belt!
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Stewart
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Stewart » Sat May 19, 2012 9:23 pm

On a side note....I was looking for the function to change my screen name last week, and couldn't find it! How did you do it?!
s.

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Sally Gross
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sally Gross » Sat May 19, 2012 9:24 pm

Last edited by Sally Gross on Sat May 19, 2012 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sat May 19, 2012 9:57 pm

. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

Andrew108
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 19, 2012 10:00 pm

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2012 10:03 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Andrew108
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Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 19, 2012 10:07 pm

Malcolm - some people see a rainbow and think that it exists. Look at the illusion of the internet if you are not sure how it is that people fixate illusions. I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. Emptiness is simple but not that simple.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2012 10:10 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Andrew108
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Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 19, 2012 10:26 pm

Hi Malcolm,
You know I was reading through Nagarjuna's 'The fundamental wisdom of the middle way' and it occurred to me that Nagarjuna had many many critics. People thought he was crazy. Completely mad. His logic is so stunningly amazing. People couldn't believe it. They also accused him of denying karma and cause and effect and so on. But his logic became a benchmark for realization and it is because of Nagarjuna's logic that we can have causeless vehicles. Whether or not one studies Nagarjuna or not, it seems that for realization to be realization it has to match Nagarjunas realization.
I hope that an uncontrived understanding of emptiness does come about in the Dzogchen students I've met and that it is as profound as Nagarjunas.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Nikolay
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Nikolay » Sat May 19, 2012 10:28 pm

Please consider donating to help find a cure for Degenerative Vitreous Syndrome:
http://www.gofundme.com/floaters

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Paul
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Paul » Sat May 19, 2012 10:51 pm

Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell


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