Ole Nydahl's teachings

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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby plwk » Sat May 19, 2012 8:39 am

"When you see a fault in someone else, realize that it is your own fault you are seeing." ~ Diamond Sutra

Is it possible to kindly furnish us with the source of this quote, which translation of the Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra is this quote from? :thanks:
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat May 19, 2012 9:45 am

Can we please stay focused and remain with the topic of this thread? I have no problem when the source of the citation is added, but this thread is about the teachings of Ole Nydahl and the question if these are in accordance with the Buddha dharma.

mindyourmind wrote:A Tibetan lama can cause as much trouble as he wants to, but a Western lama (such as ON) must not do any of those same things. Trungpa and others, including some present day "Masters" and their antics are "enlightened" and "realized" and full of crazy wisdom, but ON is a charlatan, a fraud, not the real thing etc.

We should set high standards, maybe higher than what we are doing at present, but at the same time we must also be consistent.


I agree with you on the double standard thing, but this is not the topic of this thread.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby mindyourmind » Sat May 19, 2012 11:23 am

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:Can we please stay focused and remain with the topic of this thread? I have no problem when the source of the citation is added, but this thread is about the teachings of Ole Nydahl and the question if these are in accordance with the Buddha dharma.

mindyourmind wrote:A Tibetan lama can cause as much trouble as he wants to, but a Western lama (such as ON) must not do any of those same things. Trungpa and others, including some present day "Masters" and their antics are "enlightened" and "realized" and full of crazy wisdom, but ON is a charlatan, a fraud, not the real thing etc.

We should set high standards, maybe higher than what we are doing at present, but at the same time we must also be consistent.


I agree with you on the double standard thing, but this is not the topic of this thread.


That double standard extends of course to an evaluation of a teacher's teachings. If ON was a Tibetan teacher your OP and some of the follow-up posts would have been phrased very differently, with a lot more respect, with a lot more acceptance.

If we are going to assess and evaluate his teachings we need to do so while fully aware of the tendency to do so while consciously or unconsciously applying the double standard.

But hey, it's your thread.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat May 19, 2012 11:33 am

mindyourmind wrote:That double standard extends of course to an evaluation of a teacher's teachings. If ON was a Tibetan teacher your OP and some of the follow-up posts would have been phrased very differently, with a lot more respect, with a lot more acceptance.


That is not true. If you think I'm not applying my faculty of critical thinking to the teachings some of the Tibetan "khenpos" and "lamas" give just because they're Tibetan, you don't know me at all. And yes, hey, you really don't know me! So how can you make such a claim? You're just insinuating, and your insinuations are offending. Besides, nothing that I wrote here is respectless, I'm only raising the question if Ole Nydahl's teachings are true.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby mindyourmind » Sat May 19, 2012 1:07 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:That double standard extends of course to an evaluation of a teacher's teachings. If ON was a Tibetan teacher your OP and some of the follow-up posts would have been phrased very differently, with a lot more respect, with a lot more acceptance.


That is not true. If you think I'm not applying my faculty of critical thinking to the teachings some of the Tibetan "khenpos" and "lamas" give just because they're Tibetan, you don't know me at all. And yes, hey, you really don't know me! So how can you make such a claim? You're just insinuating, and your insinuations are offending. Besides, nothing that I wrote here is respectless, I'm only raising the question if Ole Nydahl's teachings are true.


You are making this unnecessarily personal. I have made my points, and I am not interested in ON to the extent that I now want to get into a debate with you about this. The double standard has been conceded. I say that it should play a role in assessing the man's teachings. You however want to go off into a justification of your motives and the extent to which I know you.

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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat May 19, 2012 3:42 pm

I am not the one who is making things personal here.

mindyourmind wrote:If ON was a Tibetan teacher your OP and some of the follow-up posts would have been phrased very differently, with a lot more respect, with a lot more acceptance.


with this you accused me of applying a double standard. I say, I don't apply a double standard and you don't even know me, so how can you judge if I apply a double standard? And in response to that, you say I make things personal? This is nothing but a passively aggressive manipulation of yours.

And nothing has been conceded. I have agreed with you that many people apply a double standard. I, however, am not one of these people.

Since you don't know me at all, you can impossibly know if I apply a double standard, especially since I have just registered to this forum and I have only just written 23 posts.

Your hostile and offensive style and your passively agressive manipulations make a rational debate impossible.

What is happening here in this thread right now is a good example, why a rational discussion of Ole Nydahl's teaching on the internet is almost impossible. As soon as Ole Nydahl's teachings are put into question, instead of rationally answering to the propositional content of the criticism his students start to reflect the criticism against the person uttering the criticism with posts like this:

honestdboy wrote:Here is some good food for thought:

"When you see a fault in someone else, realize that it is your own fault you are seeing." ~ Diamond Sutra
:quoteunquote:


even though this is still a quite friendly remark. Contentwise, though, it is misguided because we are here not discussing Ole Nydahls faults - that would be a discussion of his Sex life etc. - instead the intention was to discuss the teachings he gives.

And then, next, the brainwash fraction sets in, making completely unfounded insinuations about me applying a double standard and whatever.

Maybe, Mindyourmind, you should take your name serious and mind your own business and your own mind instead of behaving like a troll and sabotaging this thread.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby mindyourmind » Sat May 19, 2012 3:44 pm

Like I said, it's your thread.

Do with it what you want to.
Trying to discuss this with you is clearly a waste of time.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat May 19, 2012 3:47 pm

Obviuosly you have not one single argument on your side.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby Kelwin » Sat May 19, 2012 9:20 pm

Well, that turned ugly as quickly as usual :smile:
Still, I like the idea of this thread! And I'm honestly still looking to see if there are any mistakes in his teachings, so if you have it, please share. He would probably be interested as well by the way.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby Caz » Sat May 19, 2012 11:09 pm

Just my POV but should teachers regardless of whether they are lay or ordained act in ways according to convention such as instructed in the Bodhisattva's Guide to the way of life ?
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby catmoon » Sun May 20, 2012 8:09 am

You know, if you read a few thousand threads, you start to see the same mistakes being made over and over, leading to anger and animosity.

Here's a simple rule that might help:

In an enlightened discussion, it is never acceptable to comment on your discussiion partner in anything other than glowing, admiring terms, no matter what he says, whether or not he insults you, belittles you, swears at you, curses your lineage and guru, or consigns you and all your progeny for seventy generations to the lowest tiers of the nastiest hells. It's just not allowed in civil conversation.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby honestdboy » Sun May 20, 2012 12:15 pm

As for the Buddhist talks I have attended, what I found most inspiring was the obvious devotion Lama Ole has for the 16th Karmapa and the 17th Karmapa Thaye Dorje. To me, he is a teacher of devotion and opening oneself to the blessings of the lineage. He strongly encourages guru yoga to gain some of enlightened qualities of the Karmapas. I just started reading Lama Ole's new book, Buddha and Love, which I can comment on later. Thus far, it seems very upbeat--quite the opposite of the "rude speech" Lama Ole is sometimes accused of. You can download a sample on Amazon for free.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby freethinker108 » Mon May 21, 2012 10:44 pm

Hi Folks-

Happy to see this attempt at a clear discussion on Lama Ole. I am a student of his and really only have good things to say. I've known the man for many years and been 'behind the curtain' enough to be convinced he is what he says he is. Anyways that's not really germane to this topic but I did want to be honest about where I come from.

Follow this link for a concise list detailing all the practices used in the Diamond Way Karma Kagyu transmission. Hope this is useful to all of you.

http://www.buddhism.org.uk/buddhism/dia ... editation/
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby Adamantine » Mon May 21, 2012 10:58 pm

plwk wrote:
honestdboy wrote:"When you see a fault in someone else, realize that it is your own fault you are seeing." ~ Diamond Sutra

Is it possible to kindly furnish us with the source of this quote, which translation of the Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra is this quote from? :thanks:


I don't recall anything like this in the Diamond Sutra, so I would also be interested if this is an actual quote or just a fabrication. . . I will have to assume it is fabrication unless or until honestdboy can furnish us with a citation.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby honestdboy » Tue May 22, 2012 12:39 am

Hi!
I apologize :bow: if that is not right or if it is just the gist of what was said in the Diamond Sutra. I was troubled by all the finger pointing that was going on and had searched for quotes from the Buddha on judging the faults of others. In my Google search, I found this URL and content on Respect & Judging Others:
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 053AAcqtM3

"If you can, help others; if you cannot do that, at least do them no harm."
-HH the Dalai Lama

The Diamond Sutra tells us how we should treat others:

# When you see a fault in someone else, realize that it is your own fault you are seeing.
# Practice the mind of seeing everyone as Buddha.
# Practice the positive mind that accepts the feelings of others by answering “Yes” to whatever they want.
# Practice the mind of giving to everyone you meet.

Namaste.
2 years ago
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby practitioner » Tue May 22, 2012 12:47 am

mindyourmind wrote:I don't really like ON, or find him inspiring, but that's ok, I can and do choose my own teachers.

What bothers me somewhat is that a lot of us Dharma students here in the West, especially of the Vajrayana stripe, continue to have two different sets of standards by which we judge these teachers.

A Tibetan lama can cause as much trouble as he wants to, but a Western lama (such as ON) must not do any of those same things. Trungpa and others, including some present day "Masters" and their antics are "enlightened" and "realized" and full of crazy wisdom, but ON is a charlatan, a fraud, not the real thing etc.

We should set high standards, maybe higher than what we are doing at present, but at the same time we must also be consistent.


I think this is a cop out. Plenty of people did, and still do, criticize Trungpa's behavior. Sogyal Rinpoche has many critics of his behavior. It simply isn't true that only Western lamas are put under a microscope.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby mindyourmind » Tue May 22, 2012 6:17 am

practitioner wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:I don't really like ON, or find him inspiring, but that's ok, I can and do choose my own teachers.

What bothers me somewhat is that a lot of us Dharma students here in the West, especially of the Vajrayana stripe, continue to have two different sets of standards by which we judge these teachers.

A Tibetan lama can cause as much trouble as he wants to, but a Western lama (such as ON) must not do any of those same things. Trungpa and others, including some present day "Masters" and their antics are "enlightened" and "realized" and full of crazy wisdom, but ON is a charlatan, a fraud, not the real thing etc.

We should set high standards, maybe higher than what we are doing at present, but at the same time we must also be consistent.


I think this is a cop out. Plenty of people did, and still do, criticize Trungpa's behavior. Sogyal Rinpoche has many critics of his behavior. It simply isn't true that only Western lamas are put under a microscope.


Would you disagree that there are, in general, different standards though?
I am not saying that we do not judge Tibetan teachers, it is the degree to which we do so, the degree to which we justify bad behavior.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby plwk » Tue May 22, 2012 7:32 am

Hi!
I apologize :bow: if that is not right or if it is just the gist of what was said in the Diamond Sutra. I was troubled by all the finger pointing that was going on and had searched for quotes from the Buddha on judging the faults of others. In my Google search, I found this URL and content on Respect & Judging Others:
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 053AAcqtM3

"If you can, help others; if you cannot do that, at least do them no harm."
-HH the Dalai Lama

The Diamond Sutra tells us how we should treat others:

# When you see a fault in someone else, realize that it is your own fault you are seeing.
# Practice the mind of seeing everyone as Buddha.
# Practice the positive mind that accepts the feelings of others by answering “Yes” to whatever they want.
# Practice the mind of giving to everyone you meet.

Namaste.
2 years ago

Thank you very much for your kind response.
I have seen that link before and elsewhere which carries similar quotes and to be frank I am no scholar nor translator but just a concerned fella about proper Dharma citations and quotes; and based on the many translations of this Sutra that I have read and which are available online, it seems that those quotes are somewhat missing from the proper Sutra text.
My own hunch is that these quotes may be somewhat representative of many misquotes of alleged passages of scripture texts (not to mention of Masters) but upon checking with credible translation sources, most of such quotes are either mangled badly or just fabricated to look good. Anyhow, it's just a side observation in this thread.

:thanks: & :focus:
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby honestdboy » Wed May 23, 2012 12:07 am

Sorry, I've gotten too busy with work and family responsibilities to read much of Lama Ole's new book, but here is something off his Facebook page:

Buddha & Love in Los Angeles (14 photos)

During his first day in LA, Lama Ole met the media during a radio interview and a press luncheon. He spoke about a fundamental rule in any relationship: to be generous and think of one's partner. "If you think of yourself you have problems, and if you think of others you have interesting jobs to do," Lama Ole said. He also reminded listeners about our common responsibility towards 700 million suppressed Muslim women around the world. Later at the press luncheon he announced his next book, "Buddha & Death", to be released in November 2012. — at Los Angeles.


You can also see on his Facebook page that he recently attended teachings by H.H. Dalai Lama in Europe.
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Re: Ole Nydahl's teachings

Postby Andrew108 » Wed May 23, 2012 1:40 pm

honestdboy wrote: "If you think of yourself you have problems, and if you think of others you have interesting jobs to do," Lama Ole said. He also reminded listeners about our common responsibility towards 700 million suppressed Muslim women around the world.

Hi there,
What are our common responsibilities towards 700 million suppressed Muslim women around the world? I don't really get this part.
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"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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