An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

[Rafael Maurin]

[quote="Andrew108"]
There is a huge thread about his organization on 'cult watch' - ok

Andrew, this "cult watch" disiscussion and the thread about DW and Ole is full of unproved bullshit
and the thread was started by a person who is well known for sharing malicious gossip about Ole Nydhal for years.
This person known as "Emma" or sometimes "Laura" is in reality a troubled young man with serious mantal problems...
Just to let you know...

[Jikan]

Andrew, this "cult watch" disiscussion and the thread about DW and Ole is full of unproved bullshit

Which claims in this thread are unproven? There have been a number of claims made about Nydahl here; which ones are, in your view, untenable or unsupported?

[Rafael Maurin]

Andrew, this "cult watch" disiscussion and the thread about DW and Ole is full of unproved bullshit

Which claims in this thread are unproven? There have been a number of claims made about Nydahl here; which ones are, in your view, untenable or unsupported?

I was refering to discussion on "cult watch" not Dharma Wheel

here is the link

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,59830,page=1

read from the top, first post by Emma - all this Emma`s "revelations" are just pure nonsense

[Andrew108]

Seen any other dharma groups with threads over 120 pages on 'cult watch'? Certainly seems that this Emma person has been touched with the 'crazy stick' but there are some genuine criticisms there from ex members.
Anyhow you have this relative samaya thing going on with your teacher and I can understand that even though I don't always appreciate it or think that it's beneficial for you.

[Rafael Maurin]

Seen any other dharma groups with threads over 120 pages on 'cult watch'? Certainly seems that this Emma person has been touched with the 'crazy stick' but there are some genuine criticisms there from ex members.
Anyhow you have this relative samaya thing going on with your teacher and I can understand that even though I don't always appreciate it or think that it's beneficial for you.

Genuine criticisms is fine. GENUINE - not some lunatic gossip...

It`s just that I was a DW member for more than 13 years, I know the people and I know the way the DW centers works with all it`s benefits and dawnfalls.
And when I read such a nonsense,as the "Emma revelations" from "cult watch" rather than some intelligent critic, It just make me sick.

Once, there was thread on E-Sangha where Dave (Lama Dave) gave some intelligent and substantial critic on that matter. But this is unfortunately so rare...
Ussually folks just repeat what they heard or read somewhere, and getting excited...
Life is short, it is much better to do some practice instead of spreading gossip.

Besides, if anyone is so interested how it really is in DW centers, why not visit them?
There are planty of them. And after one or few visits you will know for your self.
Whatever critic one may say about Ole or DW centers - they are very straightforword - you see what you get.
you either like it or not. If you dont like it, no one is forcing you to come.
That`s it.

[honestdboy]

Genuine criticisms is fine. GENUINE - not some lunatic gossip...

It`s just that I was a DW member for more than 13 years, I know the people and I know the way the DW centers works with all it`s benefits and dawnfalls.
And when I read such a nonsense,as the "Emma revelations" from "cult watch" rather than some intelligent critic, It just make me sick.

Once, there was thread on E-Sangha where Dave (Lama Dave) gave some intelligent and substantial critic on that matter. But this is unfortunately so rare...
Ussually folks just repeat what they heard or read somewhere, and getting excited...
Life is short, it is much better to do some practice instead of spreading gossip.

Besides, if anyone is so interested how it really is in DW centers, why not visit them?
There are planty of them. And after one or few visits you will know for your self.
Whatever critic one may say about Ole or DW centers - they are very straightforword - you see what you get.
you either like it or not. If you dont like it, no one is forcing you to come.
That`s it.[/quote]

Good point. If you are so fascinated with reading gossip about DW, why not go to a DW center and see what it's really like. You will probably love it or dislike it. If you dislike it, just find another place you like. No problem. The Buddha was fully enlightened and could teach many many different kinds of students. Today's teachers usually appeal to certain types of people--at least that's how it seems to me when I visit various centers. I like the joyful feeling at DW centers compared with some other centers where the people look spaced out or like they are in Sunday school--that doesn't appeal to me at all. To each his own.

[practitioner]

From Jamgon Kongtrul's Buddhist Ethics:

We should learn how to recognize [bad teachers] from the many descriptions given in the scriptures and then shun them. For example, the Condensed Tantra [of the Wheel of Time] states:
A slave to wealth and enjoyments, careless, rude in speech, and obsessed with sexual desire:
Wise students who wish full awakening should shun such a teacher as they would hell.

Sounds like a pretty good description of "Lama" Ole if you ask me...

[honestdboy]

There's way too much hate here at Dharma Wheel. I'm outta here after posting a few words of wisdom from Trungpa Rinpoche:

"Let go of choosing between friend and enemy.
Immediately drop thoughts that follow from passion or aggression.
Within the expanse of simply being, without judgment,
The sun of devotion spontaneously dawns."

-From "Spring's Flower: A Spontaneous Song of Experience" composed by Vidyadhara Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

[Simon E.]

Despite being married to Hannah Nydahl, Ole had a long-term relationship with Caty Hartung and a girl (often many years his junior) in every port. Now, call me a silly old square, but I can’t see many people being convinced that Ole’s involvement in relationships was always altruistic or involved much in the way of love or romance (or Buddhism for that matter). I look forward to reading this with interest.

Ole is not a monastic and (apparently) had an open (polygamic) relationship with Hannah. In which case he is alllowed to have sex in general and with as many women as he wants to. Now the ethics of teachers having sex with students (abuse of positions of power) may be a valid point, BUT if the woman is over eighteen years of age and has consented AND due to the fact that it is not a formal teacher-student relationship in a formal educational institution, then again, legally and ethically, there is no problem. Now how altruistic or romantic he was in his relationships is not actually a valid issue (it is as valid as me asking you: how altruistic and loving are you in your relationships?).

Keep the comments and questions valid and intelligent people.

Sorry, legally there might not be a problem, ethically there is a huge problem.
A relationship between teacher and student is not one of equals.

[gregkavarnos]

Sorry, legally there might not be a problem, ethically there is a huge problem.
A relationship between teacher and student is not one of equals.

cf this post viewtopic.php?f=50&t=7407&p=100741#p100416

[Simon E.]

I note your view but do not accept it. Consensual sexual relationships are only truly consensual between equals.

[Rafael Maurin]

From Jamgon Kongtrul's Buddhist Ethics:

We should learn how to recognize [bad teachers] from the many descriptions given in the scriptures and then shun them. For example, the Condensed Tantra [of the Wheel of Time] states:
A slave to wealth and enjoyments, careless, rude in speech, and obsessed with sexual desire:
Wise students who wish full awakening should shun such a teacher as they would hell.

Sounds like a pretty good description of "Lama" Ole if you ask me...

First of all, this is not about "Ole`s fans VS Ole`s critics" It is about arguments of people who know DW and know ON, and have something to say about it basad on their own experience - VS - people who just a`priori reject ON, without knowing enything else but gossips...
As I said before - I`m not a DW member anymore, although I stay in touch with them, and have many friends there.

Now, about description of a bad teacher - "A slave to wealth and enjoyments, careless, rude in speech, and obsessed with sexual desire:
Wise students who wish full awakening should shun such a teacher as they would hell."

Ole certainly have enjoyments - as we all do, but frankly , he is so busy teaching and helping sentient beings that I just dont think he have enogh time to be a "slave of enjoyments" When It comes to welth he doesn`t have it. If he is ever "rude in speech" then it is in order to help and protect. Just as Marpa was not just "rude" towords Milarepa but applied skillful means to purify Mila`s karma. Neither is he "obssesed with sexual desire" as far as I know him. Yes, he slept with many of his female students - but so did many other buddhist teachers who are not monks. Eg. Rechungpa, Drukpa Kunley, countless Dzogchen Masters or Chogyam Trungpa. And no women was ever forced to do so, there is no harm envolved. All this seem to me as if some people are just jealous

And still, there is no serious critic or otherwise about DW and ON, but this childish, envious comments about his sexuall behavior.

[justsit]

Yes, he slept with many of his female students ... And no women was ever forced to do so, there is no harm envolved (sic)

And you know this how?

[Rafael Maurin]

Yes, he slept with many of his female students ... And no women was ever forced to do so, there is no harm envolved (sic)

And you know this how?

I never heard about such a case when someone was forced to do so. But I know ladies who slept with Ole, and they have no complains
Knowing Ole and knowing that nothing is kept in secret among DW members, I assume there is no such a case.
But sure, you right, I cannot know for sure...

[Rafael Maurin]

One more thing. It just amaze me that similar topics are just on every Buddhist forum. Sometimes with the same participants...Folks spend hours of their lives debating, about just how bad ON or whoever or whatever is... Well, It seem that we all have so much spare time, that we could use to practice, and yet almost everyone complains of having not enough time to practice dharma...Amazing...

Here is something from non existing E-Sangha http://web.archive.org/web/200805220710 ... opic=24850 For those really hungry about ON discussion, you can read and read and read...

Specially I wouldlike to recommend post`s by Dave. It is a sort of serious and intelligent criticism which is not based on like/dislike attitude...

Good day to you all

[practitioner]

Sounds like a pretty good description of "Lama" Ole if you ask me...

Sounds like you are being intentionally abraisive, please cut it out or I will be forced to report you.

I am not trying to be abrasive. I do however think that analyzing a guru is a good and necessary thing to do and beneficial for one's practice. No one is really going to argue that the title of "Lama" in the Kagyu tradition is reserved for practitioners (lay or monastic) who complete a traditional 3 year retreat. Correct?? So the fact that he has given himself the title "Lama" without such credentials is troubling is it not?
Also, the fact that even his supporters here call DW "cultish" and his that his followers are "blindly in love with him". A defender of him says "knowledge about the Dharma is very limited amond DW members. That is all true."

So because he is charismatic we should abandon all critical thinking???

Of course celibacy is not required if one is not a monastic, many masters are not celibate, but morals are required. HH Sakya Trizin Rinpoche is not a monasatic nor celibate yet when he travels the world he is not sleeping with every beautiful woman he meets in each sangha is he???

And this line of criticism that anyone who disagrees with a "Lama" sleeping with his students is just "jealous" is ridiculous...

[gregkavarnos]

I do however think that analyzing a guru is a good and necessary thing to do and beneficial for one's practice.

I agree, but one line putdowns ar hardly an indication of thorough analysis.

No one is really going to argue that the title of "Lama" in the Kagyu tradition is reserved for practitioners (lay or monastic) who complete a traditional 3 year retreat. Correct?? So the fact that he has given himself the title "Lama" without such credentials is troubling is it not?

It is true that in the Kagyu lineage one has to have finished at least one three year retreat (and in the mandala of Karmapa TTD) and an apprenticeship. But (apparently, I don't know the exact details) Nydahls title was bestowed upon him.

So because he is charismatic we should abandon all critical thinking???

Nope! And this charasmatic thing, I know many people that find him anything but charasmatic so maybe we shouldn't be pushing it. has it ever occured to you that people are enamoured of Nydahl due to their karma (and others feel aversion...)?

Of course celibacy is not required if one is not a monastic, many masters are not celibate, but morals are required. HH Sakya Trizin Rinpoche is not a monasatic nor celibate yet when he travels the world he is not sleeping with every beautiful woman he meets in each sangha is he???

I don't think you will find he sleeps with every beautiful woman he meets, and the bit about morals and ethics has already been discussed.

And this line of criticism that anyone who disagrees with a "Lama" sleeping with his students is just "jealous" is ridiculous...

Ridiculous when applied to everyone but not impossible when applied to some (or many). Unless, of course, you wish to say that humans are not driven by jealousy too?

[gregkavarnos]

I note your view but do not accept it. Consensual sexual relationships are only truly consensual between equals.

Men and women are not 100% equal in our society, does that mean that a heterosexual relationship can never be consensual?

[Rafael Maurin]

No one is really going to argue that the title of "Lama" in the Kagyu tradition is reserved for practitioners (lay or monastic) who complete a traditional 3 year retreat. Correct?? So the fact that he has given himself the title "Lama" without such credentials is troubling is it not?
Also, the fact that even his supporters here call DW "cultish" and his that his followers are "blindly in love with him". A defender of him says "knowledge about the Dharma is very limited amond DW members. That is all true."
[quote][/quote]

Here you can find some clarification about his title "Lama"http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/documents/ole_shamar_letter.pdf
And here some more http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/documents.htm

When I said about "cultish" atmosphere, I should add that it is not that everyone in DW centers beheve like that, but that there are some people who display this cultish attitude.
On the other hand - Ole is their Guru, so...When I`m thinking or talking about my Gurus it is also possible that someone will think me "blindly in love with cultish approach"

And a`propos being Ole`s defender - I dont think there is anything to defend really. Ole is a buddhist teacher, - his work of spreading the Dharma is immense. His style is not a traditionale one, but he is teaching Dharma, dont forget that. And he benefits people. Many people. As I said before if you dont like his style no one is forcing you to follow him.
Someone may say that his presentation of Dharma is not 100% correct at times, and I would agree. But, there is a diffrence between not 100% correct and wrong... There are thousands of people - literally, who would never turn to Dharma if presented in a traditionale way. But now, they are Ole`s students, they are doing Ngondro, practicing and reading about the Dharma, rather than doing something else...Is that not benefitial?

Also, I would like to share a story with you.
My friend, who is a Nyingmapa and Dzogchen practicioner, told me that he attended a Dharma course some years ago with the late H.H Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche - great dzogchen master and Terton. There were some people there criticizing Ole Nydhal, spreding gossip and so on. At some point, Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche said that they should stop doing it at once, or he will leave and never return to teach them...He said that Ole is a great Bodhisattva who is extremly skillful in spreading the dharma, even to people that have very little connection with the path...

Good day to you all

[ReasonAndRhyme]

I'm a student of Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche and I've heard a recording of one of his teachings where he said that Ole Nydahl is a good lama in the sense that he is attracting many people to the dharma. He also said that by this he would not mean that all of Ole's teachings were correct. He concluded by saying that clarifying Ole's teachings would then be the responsibility of the 17th Karmapa and therefore he himself would not comment on Ole's teachings. (That was somewhen in the nineties.)

I have also heard some other remarks about Ole Nydahl Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche made and I very much doubt that he ever said that Ole was a great bodhisattva.