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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 12:38 am 
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LunaRoja wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:

I am still not clear on when Shakyamuni Buddha taught Dzogchen?



Never, but he predicted Garab Dorje.

N


When exactly did he predict him and what did he say?


You are already asked me this and I told that apart from ChNN's say so, I dont have a handy citation. When I have it, I will present it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 12:52 am 
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LunaRoja wrote:
Also according to this Garab Dorje is a Nirmanakaya emanation of Vajrasattva...

http://www.amnyitrulchung.org/lineage/m ... rab-Dorje/

This is a site in the lineage of HH Jigme Phuntsok another great Dzogchen master of this past century. I have not listened to the replay yet so I will be interested in how ChNN explains Garab Dorje as a nirmanakaya manifestation of Shakyamuni!


I think when you get hung up on ascribing some sort of personhood to some Buddha someone is considered to be an emantion of, you have this problem. It's like creating some kind of geneology rather than observing that realized nirmanakayas are emanated from the sambhogakaya aspect of ultimate realization. We often call the latter "Vajrasattva." As such, the nirmanakaya Shakyamuni is equally an emanation of Vajrasattva as Garab Dorje. Or one could look at it like the ultimate realization of both Shakyamuni and Garab Dorje--and indeed any Buddha--is "Samantabhadra." When things like this are said, though, it throws people off because they understand that a specific Buddha named "Samantabhadra" realized Buddhahood like in this and that way. But they don't understand that we also use the explanation of an actual Buddha named Samantabhadra and how his liberation occurred as a metaphor for how beings can either realize buddhahood or fall into samsara based on knowledge or their lack thereof. One must know the context to understand if a so-called 'specific' Buddha is being spoken of or a didactic method is being used.

Also, this context of speaking of "the sambhogakaya level of ultimate realization" is where I feel grounding in Madhyamaka can be really, really helpful, since it will help people from making the mistaken leap of logic to interpreting "the sambhogakaya level of ultimate realization" as some sort of singular "thing," like a truly existent field like a shared consciousness or something, rather than being uncompounded and free of the extremes of "one" or "many."


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:13 am 
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It is impossible for a Nirmanakaya emanation Shakyamuni to have a Nirmanakaya emanation Garab Dorje.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:20 am 
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LunaRoja wrote:
It is impossible for a Nirmanakaya emanation Shakyamuni to have a Nirmanakaya emanation Garab Dorje.


ok if you say so

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http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:17 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
Namdrol wrote:


Shakyamuni is an emanation of Vajradhara, so is Garab Dorje. ChNN frequently calls Garab Dorje an emanation of Shakyamuni.


Yes, but when did Shakyamuni predict his emanation? This is definitely not in any sutras.


I don't have a specific citation for you. Perhaps the source is in the commentary to the sgra thal gyur. When I find it, I will post it. Though I may not do so anytime soon.

N


Hi Namdrol,

In which commentary is it? If you are so busy perhaps I can look this up myself.

Sincerely,

LR :geek:


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:53 am 
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Pema Rigdzin wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
Also according to this Garab Dorje is a Nirmanakaya emanation of Vajrasattva...

http://www.amnyitrulchung.org/lineage/m ... rab-Dorje/

This is a site in the lineage of HH Jigme Phuntsok another great Dzogchen master of this past century. I have not listened to the replay yet so I will be interested in how ChNN explains Garab Dorje as a nirmanakaya manifestation of Shakyamuni!


I think when you get hung up on ascribing some sort of personhood to some Buddha someone is considered to be an emantion of, you have this problem. It's like creating some kind of geneology rather than observing that realized nirmanakayas are emanated from the sambhogakaya aspect of ultimate realization. We often call the latter "Vajrasattva." As such, the nirmanakaya Shakyamuni is equally an emanation of Vajrasattva as Garab Dorje. Or one could look at it like the ultimate realization of both Shakyamuni and Garab Dorje--and indeed any Buddha--is "Samantabhadra."


Hi Pema Rigdzin,

Yes, of course this is understood most Nirmanakayas are emanations of Sambhogakayas and a Sambogakaya may have many emanations. If Garab Dorje and Shakyamuni Buddha are emanations of the same Sambhogakaya there is no problem. However a nirmanakaya emanating a nirmanakaya is not possible. If you have heard otherwise then please let me know.

LR


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