An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 13, 2012 3:54 pm

samdrup wrote:Kelwin you buy into Oles 'thing'...I don't, let's leave it there.
Careful here samdrup because you may just as easily be accused of buying into the oppositions 'thing'.
Right, so by that reasoning if someone has the outward appearance of a pure Buddhist teacher, but privately is rotten to the core, then that's okay is it?
Now that is an interesting question isn't it? Why do we go to a Dharma teacher? For Dharma, right? Is it possible that somebody may be a fantastic Dharma teacher but not exactly a beacon of Buddhism in their day to day behaviour? Oh yes indeed! A few very prominent, and official, Dharma teachers come to mind. So is it possible to learn correct Dharma from somebody that seems to not apply the Dharma correctly?
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Stewart » Sun May 13, 2012 4:04 pm

Hey Greg,

I'm not referring to Karmapa 'this side' or 'that side' in that specific post...I just mean Ole's style, it's not my thing.

To be fair he's said some pretty awful things about some of my Masters, Tai Situpa and Akong Rinpoche specifically. In all the years I have known them, I have never heard them say a harsh word in return, publicly or privately. This speaks volumes to me.

As to your second question, I personally don't think so. As for as my teachers conduct, I have never seen or heard anything contrary to what they teach, again publicly or privately....and I believe we should distance ourselves if we find out for sure it is otherwise.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sun May 13, 2012 4:04 pm

Kelwin wrote:
Knotty Veneer wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
Besides all the attacks on him as a person, and his unconventional behaviour, what do we think about his teachings? This is an honest question here. Do we find anything in his teachings which is not Buddhism?


Well Shamar certainly did a couple of years ago. BTW, what do you think about Ole wanting to beat up on Akong Rinpoche as reported in "Rogues in Robes". Is it really defensible for a Dharma teacher to speak like that?

I think Shamar Rinpoche accused him of giving some sexual / tantric union teachings? Which he actually never did? Or, what criticism do you refer to?

I seriously disliked the 'Rogues in Robes' book. Can't remember the beating up part though. Have the dutch translation here on my desk now, in what part can we find it?


No longer having my own copy I found it in the book search facility on Amazon .com. I used the English copy currently available (sorry don't know Dutch). According to Amazon on p121 of the English version there is the line: "Ole just wished to get Akong alone in a room for five minutes - no witnesses." I think that would be in chapter 10 called The Retreat (guessing from the table of contents). I have tried to think of any harmless interpretation of this line but I can't think of one.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 13, 2012 4:16 pm

samdrup wrote:As to your second question, I personally don't think so. As for as my teachers conduct, I have never seen or heard anything contrary to what they teach, again publicly or privately....and I believe we should distance ourselves if we find out for sure it is otherwise.
Careful!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Kelwin » Sun May 13, 2012 4:36 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:No longer having my own copy I found it in the book search facility on Amazon .com. I used the English copy currently available (sorry don't know Dutch). According to Amazon on p121 of the English version there is the line: "Ole just wished to get Akong alone in a room for five minutes - no witnesses." I think that would be in chapter 10 called The Retreat (guessing from the table of contents). I have tried to think of any harmless interpretation of this line but I can't think of one.

Ah yes, found it, p141 in my version. It's right after the part where Akong Rinpoche apparantly tries to explain Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche's death by someone putting sugar in the petrol, which would stop the engine, sling it uncontrollably out of the car, and cause the deadly crash. Yes... right...

I could imagine myself saying 'God I could kill that idiot right now', even though I don't believe in God, nor want to kill anyone, and don't believe he's an idiot either. I think Ole's remark is similar. That doesn't make it a nice thing to say by any standard, but he's not actually endorsing violence either.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sun May 13, 2012 4:44 pm

Kelwin wrote:
Knotty Veneer wrote:No longer having my own copy I found it in the book search facility on Amazon .com. I used the English copy currently available (sorry don't know Dutch). According to Amazon on p121 of the English version there is the line: "Ole just wished to get Akong alone in a room for five minutes - no witnesses." I think that would be in chapter 10 called The Retreat (guessing from the table of contents). I have tried to think of any harmless interpretation of this line but I can't think of one.

Ah yes, found it, p141 in my version. It's right after the part where Akong Rinpoche apparantly tries to explain Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche's death by someone putting sugar in the petrol, which would stop the engine, sling it uncontrollably out of the car, and cause the deadly crash. Yes... right...

I could imagine myself saying 'God I could kill that idiot right now', even though I don't believe in God, nor want to kill anyone, and don't believe he's an idiot either. I think Ole's remark is similar. That doesn't make it a nice thing to say by any standard, but he's not actually endorsing violence either.


Well if you can live it. I think it a terrible thing for a dharma teacher to say.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Stewart » Sun May 13, 2012 4:53 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
samdrup wrote:As to your second question, I personally don't think so. As for as my teachers conduct, I have never seen or heard anything contrary to what they teach, again publicly or privately....and I believe we should distance ourselves if we find out for sure it is otherwise.
Careful!


Okay Greg I'll venture a reply...

Regarding my main Guru....over the past 10 years he is the teacher I have spent most time with and received most teachings from, from Ngondro and 3 roots to Nature of Mind instruction and everything in between. I usually travelled with him when he came to the UK for around a month each year and also visited him in India.

Not only have I attend hours of teachings etc. but spent a lot personal time with him, receiving teachings, going for meals, living in the same space, going to restaurants/cinema/museums etc.going for days out/jogging/swimming, do errands and shopping. Also organising interviews with students and groups.

In all this time, he has been kind, humorous, patient, always willing to spend time clarifying points. I have never heard him betray the attitude he has always displayed publicly. He is devoted to his Gurus and places their instructions at the centre of his heart. I have never seen or heard him do or say anything I would consider hidden or shameful....nothing sinister or contrary to his usual personality. In short he is sincere and consistent. Publicly and privately....I have never heard anyone say a bad word against him.

My personal experience with him, well that's private, but through my connection with him I am convinced beyond doubt on all levels that he is an awakened Master.

I recently received comments directly from another incredible Master recently, praising my Guru and his capacity as a Dzogchen/Mahamudra teacher. (Which according to one of his close students, he isn't in the habit of handing out praise to other Lamas lightly.)

Therefore I have not problem whatsoever making the above statement, I cannot speak for other teachers.

best wishes,
Last edited by Stewart on Sun May 13, 2012 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Stewart » Sun May 13, 2012 4:54 pm

Kelwin wrote:
Knotty Veneer wrote:No longer having my own copy I found it in the book search facility on Amazon .com. I used the English copy currently available (sorry don't know Dutch). According to Amazon on p121 of the English version there is the line: "Ole just wished to get Akong alone in a room for five minutes - no witnesses." I think that would be in chapter 10 called The Retreat (guessing from the table of contents). I have tried to think of any harmless interpretation of this line but I can't think of one.

Ah yes, found it, p141 in my version. It's right after the part where Akong Rinpoche apparantly tries to explain Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche's death by someone putting sugar in the petrol, which would stop the engine, sling it uncontrollably out of the car, and cause the deadly crash. Yes... right...

I could imagine myself saying 'God I could kill that idiot right now', even though I don't believe in God, nor want to kill anyone, and don't believe he's an idiot either. I think Ole's remark is similar. That doesn't make it a nice thing to say by any standard, but he's not actually endorsing violence either.


Sorry mate, but that's a desperate reply.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Kelwin » Sun May 13, 2012 5:01 pm

samdrup wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
Knotty Veneer wrote:No longer having my own copy I found it in the book search facility on Amazon .com. I used the English copy currently available (sorry don't know Dutch). According to Amazon on p121 of the English version there is the line: "Ole just wished to get Akong alone in a room for five minutes - no witnesses." I think that would be in chapter 10 called The Retreat (guessing from the table of contents). I have tried to think of any harmless interpretation of this line but I can't think of one.

Ah yes, found it, p141 in my version. It's right after the part where Akong Rinpoche apparantly tries to explain Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche's death by someone putting sugar in the petrol, which would stop the engine, sling it uncontrollably out of the car, and cause the deadly crash. Yes... right...

I could imagine myself saying 'God I could kill that idiot right now', even though I don't believe in God, nor want to kill anyone, and don't believe he's an idiot either. I think Ole's remark is similar. That doesn't make it a nice thing to say by any standard, but he's not actually endorsing violence either.


Sorry mate, but that's a desperate reply.

Not feeling very desperate actually :smile: There's nothing to gain or lose for me, saying these things, so why would I? And I'm definitely not saying it's a very loving remark by Ole. And I'm definitely not supporting many other remarks that Ole has made over the years either. But my goodness, it's just a random remark after someone made strange accusations. To conclude from that, that he condones violence, is going a bit too far I believe, wouldn't you agree?
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Stewart » Sun May 13, 2012 5:24 pm

Well, no, I wouldn't agree.

Saying ...'no witnesses' is a bit sinister if you are asking my opinion. I have never heard another Dharma teacher say anything remotely close to this. I have, however, heard thugs say similar things.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sun May 13, 2012 5:54 pm

Regarding "Rogues in Robes", if you are interested in learning more on how Ole thinks you can do no better than this book. It is a monument to his arrogance and an unbelieveable exercise in unskillful speech. From what I remember virtually every senior Karma Kagyu lama is criticized and condemned (except Shamar): Kalu, Thrangu, Tenga, Drupon Dechen, Bokar, Situ, Gyaltsab and others like Tulku Urgyen and HHDL (and there are more that I can't remember). Even Lamas who are now listed as supporters like the late Gendeun Rinpoche and Beru Khyentse are criticized for not being more willing to support Shamar. It gives the impression that only Ole, with his superior Western intellect could see what through the machinations of these medieval Tibetans and really understand what's going and save the Karma Kagyu lineage from imminent doom. They style too in the English translation is incredibly bombastic - it reads like a gung-ho spy thriller.

Actually there's another thesis topic for anyone trying to do an academic discussion on DW - what about an analysis of the all the books on the 17th Karmapa?
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Stewart » Sun May 13, 2012 6:09 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Yeah, okay, I think we done the one sentence to death now... do you all think we can move on?
:namaste:


Oh I dunno, I'm sure we could squeeze another couple of pages out of it! Or better still split the thread. :tongue:
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Rafael Maurin » Mon May 14, 2012 4:13 pm

I `m in touch with Lama Ole Nydhal and DW centers since 1996, when I took Refuge with him.
Like Kelwin, I decided at some point, that I would rather prefer to deepen my understanding of Dharma, as I have no problem with more traditional
approach to Dharma.
I do not agree with some of ON views, and it seem that he is not teaching the Dharma in a 100% correct way at times - which is one of the reasons
i`m not a member of DW anymore, but in overall it is very benefitiall, specially for beginners with little conection to Dharma.

There are some people who would never get any interest in Dharma as it is taught in a traditional way.

Ole is capable to teach theese people who would never do it otherwise.
I disegree with him in some points, but generally I`m very greatfull , and I do respect him.
And, certeinly, he carry the blessing of the Lineage and XVI Karmapa. That is for sure.

While there is some dust of truth about a cultish atmosphere around him, and it is also true that most of DW members are blindly in love with him as a person, not really understanding that to follow your Lama, you dont necessarily have to look, walk, dress and speak like your lama :tongue: , that it is not what it is about. Also knowledge about the Dharma is very limited amond DW members. That is all true. Yet all this comments about Nazi DW,
or about whether he really was a close student of XVI karmapa, as well as many other paranoid and unproved accusations are disgusting and are pure nonsense.

I have no idea what will happen to DW after Ole is gone, but hopefully Gyalwa Karmapa will take care of it.
All the best :smile:
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Kelwin » Mon May 14, 2012 5:00 pm

:good:
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby AlexanderS » Tue May 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Rafael Maurin wrote:I `m in touch with Lama Ole Nydhal and DW centers since 1996, when I took Refuge with him.
Like Kelwin, I decided at some point, that I would rather prefer to deepen my understanding of Dharma, as I have no problem with more traditional
approach to Dharma.
I do not agree with some of ON views, and it seem that he is not teaching the Dharma in a 100% correct way at times - which is one of the reasons
i`m not a member of DW anymore, but in overall it is very benefitiall, specially for beginners with little conection to Dharma.

There are some people who would never get any interest in Dharma as it is taught in a traditional way.

Ole is capable to teach theese people who would never do it otherwise.
I disegree with him in some points, but generally I`m very greatfull , and I do respect him.
And, certeinly, he carry the blessing of the Lineage and XVI Karmapa. That is for sure.

While there is some dust of truth about a cultish atmosphere around him, and it is also true that most of DW members are blindly in love with him as a person, not really understanding that to follow your Lama, you dont necessarily have to look, walk, dress and speak like your lama :tongue: , that it is not what it is about. Also knowledge about the Dharma is very limited amond DW members. That is all true. Yet all this comments about Nazi DW,
or about whether he really was a close student of XVI karmapa, as well as many other paranoid and unproved accusations are disgusting and are pure nonsense.

I have no idea what will happen to DW after Ole is gone, but hopefully Gyalwa Karmapa will take care of it.
All the best :smile:


I agree with this post
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Willy » Tue May 15, 2012 7:12 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Rafael Maurin wrote:I `m in touch with Lama Ole Nydhal and DW centers since 1996, when I took Refuge with him.
Like Kelwin, I decided at some point, that I would rather prefer to deepen my understanding of Dharma, as I have no problem with more traditional
approach to Dharma.
I do not agree with some of ON views, and it seem that he is not teaching the Dharma in a 100% correct way at times - which is one of the reasons
i`m not a member of DW anymore, but in overall it is very benefitiall, specially for beginners with little conection to Dharma.

There are some people who would never get any interest in Dharma as it is taught in a traditional way.

Ole is capable to teach theese people who would never do it otherwise.
I disegree with him in some points, but generally I`m very greatfull , and I do respect him.
And, certeinly, he carry the blessing of the Lineage and XVI Karmapa. That is for sure.

While there is some dust of truth about a cultish atmosphere around him, and it is also true that most of DW members are blindly in love with him as a person, not really understanding that to follow your Lama, you dont necessarily have to look, walk, dress and speak like your lama :tongue: , that it is not what it is about. Also knowledge about the Dharma is very limited amond DW members. That is all true. Yet all this comments about Nazi DW,
or about whether he really was a close student of XVI karmapa, as well as many other paranoid and unproved accusations are disgusting and are pure nonsense.

I have no idea what will happen to DW after Ole is gone, but hopefully Gyalwa Karmapa will take care of it.
All the best :smile:


I agree with this post


I also agree. I have been his student since 1997. I have very close friends who "grew up" like Rafael, and wanted to go a little deeper and found a new teacher. For whatever reason, I have found that as I "grew up", and moved away from mob mentality Buddhism, I continue to do my practices under the guidance of Lama Ole. He continues to meet me at the depths of my understanding. He has recommended other teachers for empowerments and vows etc, but he is my root-lama.

I am pointing out that some people grow up and leave DW and others grow up and stay.

I don't take it as a bad thing that he attracts new comers, and it doesn't conflict with my growth. His new book came out on Amazon.com today and is already #1 in Buddhism, #2 in Love & Romance. He is a bit of a rock-star, and that's what it takes to get some people's attention. The methods and path are not watered down because of his charisma and "fanatical" following.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 16, 2012 9:59 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:Despite being married to Hannah Nydahl, Ole had a long-term relationship with Caty Hartung and a girl (often many years his junior) in every port. Now, call me a silly old square, but I can’t see many people being convinced that Ole’s involvement in relationships was always altruistic or involved much in the way of love or romance (or Buddhism for that matter). I look forward to reading this with interest.
Ole is not a monastic and (apparently) had an open (polygamic) relationship with Hannah. In which case he is alllowed to have sex in general and with as many women as he wants to. Now the ethics of teachers having sex with students (abuse of positions of power) may be a valid point, BUT if the woman is over eighteen years of age and has consented AND due to the fact that it is not a formal teacher-student relationship in a formal educational institution, then again, legally and ethically, there is no problem. Now how altruistic or romantic he was in his relationships is not actually a valid issue (it is as valid as me asking you: how altruistic and loving are you in your relationships?).

Keep the comments and questions valid and intelligent people.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Andrew108 » Wed May 16, 2012 10:15 am

So he sleeps around - o.k
He has no lineage but had a close relationship with 16th Karmapa - ok
He gets involved in dharma politics and politics in general - ok
He sometimes makes insensitive remarks about Islamic faith - o.k
He doesn't write his books himself but is part of the 'publishing process' - o.k
He has been quoted in the past as wanting to beat up on a respected Tibetan lama - ok
He says that he is adopting a western approach whilst at the same time keeping the practices traditional - ok
Ex-students however crazy they may be have been threatened with legal action for their public criticisms - ok
There is a huge thread about his organization on 'cult watch' - ok

So.....I mean......why is there still a debate? I'm not making any moral stance - he can do what he wants - but so can we all - and we don't claim be dharma teachers. In fact I hope and pray that I'm never a dharma teacher. I wouldn't want to fall into Ole's shoes. As I said I feel sorry for him and his students. They don't need my sympathy, but that's just how I react to this situation and the absurd idea that there is any value to what he is doing.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed May 16, 2012 10:21 am

Andrew108 wrote:So he sleeps around - o.k
He has no lineage but had a close relationship with 16th Karmapa - ok
He gets involved in dharma politics and politics in general - ok
He sometimes makes insensitive remarks about Islamic faith - o.k
He doesn't write his books himself but is part of the 'publishing process' - o.k
He has been quoted in the past as wanting to beat up on a respected Tibetan lama - ok
He says that he is adopting a western approach whilst at the same time keeping the practices traditional - ok
Ex-students however crazy they may be have been threatened with legal action for their public criticisms - ok
There is a huge thread about his organization on 'cult watch' - ok

So.....I mean......why is there still a debate? I'm not making any moral stance - he can do what he wants - but so can we all - and we don't claim be dharma teachers. In fact I hope and pray that I'm never a dharma teacher. I wouldn't want to fall into Ole's shoes. As I said I feel sorry for him and his students. They don't need my sympathy, but that's just how I react to this situation and the absurd idea that there is any value to what he is doing.



Tashi delek,

What is said in Dorje Thekpa regarding the development of the Bodhicitta?

OM MANE PEME HUNG

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Andrew108 » Wed May 16, 2012 10:46 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:So he sleeps around - o.k
He has no lineage but had a close relationship with 16th Karmapa - ok
He gets involved in dharma politics and politics in general - ok
He sometimes makes insensitive remarks about Islamic faith - o.k
He doesn't write his books himself but is part of the 'publishing process' - o.k
He has been quoted in the past as wanting to beat up on a respected Tibetan lama - ok
He says that he is adopting a western approach whilst at the same time keeping the practices traditional - ok
Ex-students however crazy they may be have been threatened with legal action for their public criticisms - ok
There is a huge thread about his organization on 'cult watch' - ok

So.....I mean......why is there still a debate? I'm not making any moral stance - he can do what he wants - but so can we all - and we don't claim be dharma teachers. In fact I hope and pray that I'm never a dharma teacher. I wouldn't want to fall into Ole's shoes. As I said I feel sorry for him and his students. They don't need my sympathy, but that's just how I react to this situation and the absurd idea that there is any value to what he is doing.



Tashi delek,

What is said in Dorje Thekpa regarding the development of the Bodhicitta?

OM MANE PEME HUNG

Mutsog Marro
KY

Hi Mutsog,
To be a dharma teacher is to embody the dharma - to be the dharma. It's a useless activity otherwise. Those natural qualities of wisdom can shine through when dharma is actualized. It's never taught and the 'dharma teacher' should be that realization. That's why we call them masters. Not because of how charismatic they are but because they have embodied the dharma. Then that's bodhicitta working without an agenda. Then that's really of benefit. Then genuine dharma is being transmitted in a genuine way from a genuine master. If the master isn't genuine - if they have an agenda then it's a big problem. Like a bank with no money. An economy in crisis.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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