Garab Dorje and the Dzogchen Lineage

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Garab Dorje and the Dzogchen Lineage

Postby dakini_boi » Tue May 15, 2012 10:50 pm

Namdrol wrote: Zhang Zhung Nyengyud is an authentic line of Dzogchen intimate instruction that do not depend on Garab Dorje.


I thought, according to ChNNR, Garab Dorje was the first teacher of Dzogchen on this planet (or in this time cycle or something, not sure of the terminology). . . am I mistaken?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue May 15, 2012 10:56 pm

Not to answer for Namdrol, however I'm quite sure that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche just meant that Garab Dorje was the first Dzogchen teacher on this planet (and/or within this time-cycle) specifically within the Buddha-Dharma tradition.

Because Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche is said to have taught Dzogchen before Garab Dorje, yet Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche does afterall recognize Yungdrung Bon as authentic Dzogchen.

:anjali:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2012 11:29 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
Namdrol wrote: Zhang Zhung Nyengyud is an authentic line of Dzogchen intimate instruction that do not depend on Garab Dorje.


I thought, according to ChNNR, Garab Dorje was the first teacher of Dzogchen on this planet (or in this time cycle or something, not sure of the terminology). . . am I mistaken?



Garab Dorje was the first human teacher of Dzogchen in this epoch. Tonpa Shenrab lived rougly 2000 years before the Buddha. Before him was Buddha Kashyapa, another Teacher in the 12 Traditons. In Dzogchen Community we add Tonpa Shenrab to the 12 teachers mentioned in the sgra thal gyur. And in the sras gicg bu rgyud many more teachers are mentioned beyond these twelve. So we can understand that in reality the Teachers of Dzogchen are limitless.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby dakini_boi » Tue May 15, 2012 11:31 pm

Namdrol wrote:Garab Dorje was the first human teacher of Dzogchen in this epoch.


Thank you. Could you clarify what is the definition of "epoch"?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2012 11:35 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Garab Dorje was the first human teacher of Dzogchen in this epoch.


Thank you. Could you clarify what is the definition of "epoch"?


Good question. We can say during the śāsana of Sakyamuni Buddha. However, the cycles of manifestations of Dzogchen teachers do not really match up with the principles of so called supreme Nirmanakāyas.

Also, it does not seem that Tonpa Shenrab taught all the Dzogchen tantras as Garab Dorje did. In fact Shakyamuni is considered to be a Teacher of Dzogchen, but he did not teach even one Dzogchen text. But he is so considered because he predicted his emanation of Garab Dorje.

N
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby LunaRoja » Tue May 15, 2012 11:45 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Also, it does not seem that Tonpa Shenrab taught all the Dzogchen tantras as Garab Dorje did. In fact Shakyamuni is considered to be a Teacher of Dzogchen, but he did not teach even one Dzogchen text. But he is so considered because he predicted his emanation of Garab Dorje.

N


Garab Dorje is an emanation of Shakyamuni! :jawdrop: I have never heard this before. When did he predict his emanation of Garab Dorje? Is this in the Dzogchen tantras?

LR
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2012 11:49 pm

LunaRoja wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Also, it does not seem that Tonpa Shenrab taught all the Dzogchen tantras as Garab Dorje did. In fact Shakyamuni is considered to be a Teacher of Dzogchen, but he did not teach even one Dzogchen text. But he is so considered because he predicted his emanation of Garab Dorje.

N


Garab Dorje is an emanation of Shakyamuni! :jawdrop: I have never heard this before. When did he predict his emanation of Garab Dorje? Is this in the Dzogchen tantras?

LR



Shakyamuni is an emanation of Vajradhara, so is Garab Dorje. ChNN frequently calls Garab Dorje an emanation of Shakyamuni.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby LunaRoja » Tue May 15, 2012 11:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:

Shakyamuni is an emanation of Vajradhara, so is Garab Dorje. ChNN frequently calls Garab Dorje an emanation of Shakyamuni.


Yes, but when did Shakyamuni predict his emanation? This is definitely not in any sutras.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 16, 2012 12:09 am

LunaRoja wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Shakyamuni is an emanation of Vajradhara, so is Garab Dorje. ChNN frequently calls Garab Dorje an emanation of Shakyamuni.


Yes, but when did Shakyamuni predict his emanation? This is definitely not in any sutras.


I don't have a specific citation for you. Perhaps the source is in the commentary to the sgra thal gyur. When I find it, I will post it. Though I may not do so anytime soon.

N
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby LunaRoja » Wed May 16, 2012 5:44 am

Namdrol wrote:
Shakyamuni is an emanation of Vajradhara, so is Garab Dorje. ChNN frequently calls Garab Dorje an emanation of Shakyamuni.


My understanding is that ChNN said that Garab Dorje is an independent Nirmanakaya Manifestation. Where has he said that Garab Dorje is a Shakyamuni emanation? I would like to read this.

Thank you again for your help.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Wed May 16, 2012 8:22 am

Namdrol wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Garab Dorje was the first human teacher of Dzogchen in this epoch.


Thank you. Could you clarify what is the definition of "epoch"?


Good question. We can say during the śāsana of Sakyamuni Buddha. However, the cycles of manifestations of Dzogchen teachers do not really match up with the principles of so called supreme Nirmanakāyas.

Also, it does not seem that Tonpa Shenrab taught all the Dzogchen tantras as Garab Dorje did. In fact Shakyamuni is considered to be a Teacher of Dzogchen, but he did not teach even one Dzogchen text. But he is so considered because he predicted his emanation of Garab Dorje.

N
Yes, before Padmasambhava. It seems Tibetan Bön also has Madhyamaka, Cittamatra... so on and so forth. I wonder if before Nagarjuna and Asanga too?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed May 16, 2012 10:14 am

Garab Dorje was the first human teacher of Dzogchen in this epoch.[/quote]

Thank you. Could you clarify what is the definition of "epoch"?[/quote]

Good question. We can say during the śāsana of Sakyamuni Buddha. However, the cycles of manifestations of Dzogchen teachers do not really match up with the principles of so called supreme Nirmanakāyas.

Also, it does not seem that Tonpa Shenrab taught all the Dzogchen tantras as Garab Dorje did. In fact Shakyamuni is considered to be a Teacher of Dzogchen, but he did not teach even one Dzogchen text. But he is so considered because he predicted his emanation of Garab Dorje.

N[/quote]Yes, before Padmasambhava. It seems Tibetan Bön also has Madhyamaka, Cittamatra... so on and so forth. I wonder if before Nagarjuna and Asanga too?[/quote]


Tashi delek,

If Garab Dorje would be the "first" "human teacher" who did teach Dzogchen here on our planet called world, that is a very one sided vision, imo. If the first then also the last one? :o In Bon we have also Dzogchen and a Buddha who did teached Dzogchen, when i may add this here of course.

By the way where isdit predicted by Buddha Shakyamuni that his reincarnation would be Garab Dorje?

Bon has its own Prajnaparamita bum and that is very extended, more than in Dorje Thekpa.
Madyamika a must which was pushed by Gelug, but that does count also for the other Tibetan Traditions.....
Geshes must be experienced with Madyamika.

Then all Buddhas are able to teach Dzogchen but some do and others don' t. This is due to our karma to meet Dzogchen teachings derived from Kuntu Zangpo or not. We have the link to it or not, very simple.

But i see here also that Dzogchen interpretations are done without the 8 (other) vehicles or with them as the Path.
Most visions here done are seen without the monastic Tradition, so missing are the Ngondros on the Path.
These visions are done by persons like Namdrol and he has right according his level of understanding and practice.
But that would never count for some others here aboard, they must follow a more gradual Path like Namdrol also did follow, when i am right informed.

If we let dry concrete too quick, it is getting weak .....


It is a big mistake to advocate here the start with Dzogchen without the foregoing 8 Paths or without the Base of Sutra and Tantra to follow. Here it is important to not get stucked too long, in the web of some confusing philosophies like Madyamika with its emptiness interpretation. But also not to get stucked in Mahamudra because that will cost time........

So i understood that some things in Sutra and Tantra can be very misleading because the right ultimate is not shown through the line of Teachings (Sutra and Tantra). But i must say that in Bon, Sutra and Tantra is always pointed out in Dzogchen as the top experience. This because Bon is a Dzogchen Lineage and Sutra and Tantra are secondary seen. But sure there are also in Bon persons who due to their Karma do practice only Sutra or Tantra and have no notion about Dzogchen.

So it is realy the level of understanding / Karma that persons can explain that Dzogchen can be without preliminaries, Sutra and Tantra but that is never a general logic.

So a very useful Dzogchen Lineage would consist of a Buddha who did teached the whole:
Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen. like in Bon. But if we must call this all Buddhism ?

See here allready that Buddhism and Dzogchen would "differ". I guess that the Adi Buddha differs here so the Paths but it is IMO all Buddhism even Bon. So Dzogchen is no doubt Buddhism or it is Buddhism and (her) Dzogchen.

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 16, 2012 11:53 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
If Garab Dorje would be the "first" "human teacher" who did teach Dzogchen here on our planet called world, that is a very one sided vision, imo.


Right, I did not say that, so you were not reading carefully: Garab Dorje was the last, before him, Shakymuni, before him Shenrab, before him Kashyapa Buddha, before him, Ngondzog Gyalpo, etc.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 16, 2012 11:57 am

LunaRoja wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Shakyamuni is an emanation of Vajradhara, so is Garab Dorje. ChNN frequently calls Garab Dorje an emanation of Shakyamuni.


My understanding is that ChNN said that Garab Dorje is an independent Nirmanakaya Manifestation. Where has he said that Garab Dorje is a Shakyamuni emanation? I would like to read this.

Thank you again for your help.


He said so yesterday in his lecture. You can listen in the replay.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Wed May 16, 2012 12:04 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
If Garab Dorje would be the "first" "human teacher" who did teach Dzogchen here on our planet called world, that is a very one sided vision, imo.


Right, I did not say that, so you were not reading carefully: Garab Dorje was the last, before him, Shakymuni, before him Shenrab, before him Kashyapa Buddha, before him, Ngondzog Gyalpo, etc.

Is the Shenrab Miwoche from Bon listed among the 12 Dzogchen Buddhas?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 16, 2012 12:14 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
If Garab Dorje would be the "first" "human teacher" who did teach Dzogchen here on our planet called world, that is a very one sided vision, imo.


Right, I did not say that, so you were not reading carefully: Garab Dorje was the last, before him, Shakymuni, before him Shenrab, before him Kashyapa Buddha, before him, Ngondzog Gyalpo, etc.

Is the Shenrab Miwoche from Bon listed among the 12 Dzogchen Buddhas?



Not in the sgra thal gyur. But Tonpa Shenrab has been added to the 12 Teachers by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, where he has an equal position with the twelve mentioned in the sgra thal gyur.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 16, 2012 12:36 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote:Is the Shenrab Miwoche from Bon listed among the 12 Dzogchen Buddhas?



Not in the sgra thal gyur. But Tonpa Shenrab has been added to the 12 Teachers by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, where he has an equal position with the twelve mentioned in the sgra thal gyur
So what is the source or quote He did it?


I just cited one source, Guru Chowang. But in general, it is because ChNN considers Zhang Zhung Nyan rGyud a valid independent stream of Dzogchen he includes Tonpa Shenrab with the other twelve who existed before Garab Dorje.

N
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed May 16, 2012 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby LunaRoja » Wed May 16, 2012 11:57 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
If Garab Dorje would be the "first" "human teacher" who did teach Dzogchen here on our planet called world, that is a very one sided vision, imo.


Right, I did not say that, so you were not reading carefully: Garab Dorje was the last, before him, Shakymuni, before him Shenrab, before him Kashyapa Buddha, before him, Ngondzog Gyalpo, etc.


I am still not clear on when Shakyamuni Buddha taught Dzogchen?

Also according to this Garab Dorje is a Nirmanakaya emanation of Vajrasattva...

http://www.amnyitrulchung.org/lineage/m ... rab-Dorje/

This is a site in the lineage of HH Jigme Phuntsok another great Dzogchen master of this past century. I have not listened to the replay yet so I will be interested in how ChNN explains Garab Dorje as a nirmanakaya manifestation of Shakyamuni!
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 17, 2012 12:24 am

LunaRoja wrote:
I am still not clear on when Shakyamuni Buddha taught Dzogchen?



Never, but he predicted Garab Dorje.

N
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby LunaRoja » Thu May 17, 2012 12:27 am

Namdrol wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
I am still not clear on when Shakyamuni Buddha taught Dzogchen?



Never, but he predicted Garab Dorje.

N


When exactly did he predict him and what did he say?
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