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 Post subject: Dzogchen and Compassion
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:35 pm 
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Anders Honore wrote:
Are you saying bodhicitta is a dispensible part of Dzogchen?


Compassion is an innate quality of one's primdordial state i.e. the basis. You can't really give up bodhicitta, and you can't really create it. It can be covered over by obscurations, but those are adventitious. When you recognize your condition as it is, compassion for others naturally arises.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:59 pm 
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LunaRoja wrote:
I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.


When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:37 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.


When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.


I thought the idea of the 3 KAYAS came from the Mahayana tradition. If Dzogchen posits Nirmankayas isn't this a Buddhist concept? How could a non-buddhist practice Dzogchen without an understanding of the 3 kayas?

Thank you for your help.

LR


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:46 pm 
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LunaRoja wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.


When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.


I thought the idea of the 3 KAYAS came from the Mahayana tradition. If Dzogchen posits Nirmankayas isn't this a Buddhist concept? How could a non-buddhist practice Dzogchen without an understanding of the 3 kayas?

Thank you for your help.

LR


Personally, I don't think that anyone who is totally ignorant of Buddhism can really practise Dzogchen.
He/she will be lost in translation of terms and concepts...... :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:17 pm 
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LunaRoja wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.


When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.


I thought the idea of the 3 KAYAS came from the Mahayana tradition. If Dzogchen posits Nirmankayas isn't this a Buddhist concept? How could a non-buddhist practice Dzogchen without an understanding of the 3 kayas?

Thank you for your help.

LR



The three kāyas are just the essence, nature and energy/compassion of your own state. If you recognize that, it does not matter what you call them.

N

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.


When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.

Could you elaborate on this, please?


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:45 pm 
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tomamundsen wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.


When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.

Could you elaborate on this, please?


One of the mains functions of the third primordial wisdom of the basis, called thugs rje, and translated in various ways to emphasize different aspects, is to provide the basis for working for the benefit of sentient beings after samsara and nirvana "turn their backs on one another". When we consider this from the point of view of its function, we call it rtsal -- and this rtsal is what is visible to ordinary sentient beings -- everyone can experience rtsal directly through their six senses. In fact, the operation of rtsal through their six senses is what gives rise to sense consciousnesses and so on. Nirmanakāyas are simply the energy of the basis that functions to help sentient beings in samsara in the same way that a wishfulflling gem grants all wishes, without thought, naturally, spontaneously.

So when we fully integrate with our primordial state and acheive the great tranformation body or the body of light, out of that emanates so called nirmanakāyas to benefit sentient beings. Of course when we practice, we are practicing also out of concern for sentient beings. But we don't need to contrive that compassion. Even a hint of an experience of the nature of our mind is sufficient to activate our bodhicitta for others. This is a million times better than all the contrived meditations on bodhicitta one finds in such texts as Lam rim and so on. Of course, of you want to do Lamrim and systematically cultivate bodhicitta, there is no fault.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Last edited by Malcolm on Tue May 15, 2012 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Are you a nicer person? I do not mean are you a more "compassionate" person in that syrupy fake Lam rim way.

M


This statement seems a little unfair to our Lam Rim friends. I have met some wonderfully compassionate Lam Rim students and some very grouchy Dzogchenpas. As far as compassion goes one of the most compassionate people I've met in my life is a Roman Catholic. I really think the nonsectarian approach is best. There are great fruits in all the schools and religions.

Sincerely,

LR


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:02 pm 
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LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Are you a nicer person? I do not mean are you a more "compassionate" person in that syrupy fake Lam rim way.

M


This statement seems a little unfair to our Lam Rim friends. I have met some wonderfully compassionate Lam Rim students and some very grouchy Dzogchenpas. As far as compassion goes one of the most compassionate people I've met in my life is a Roman Catholic. I really think the nonsectarian approach is best. There are great fruits in all the schools and religions.

Sincerely,

LR



Put emphasis on fake, then you will understand my point.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:17 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
I do not mean are you a more "compassionate" person in that syrupy fake Lam rim way.

Well, earlier I was not sure if following this thread was a good idea. Now I am quite sure it is not.


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:18 pm 
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mirage wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
I do not mean are you a more "compassionate" person in that syrupy fake Lam rim way.

Well, earlier I was not sure if following this thread was a good idea. Now I am quite sure it is not.


He says he is drawing a distinction between Lam Rim and fake Lam Rim.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:46 pm 
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mirage wrote:
Anyway, I am not really interested in discussing it, just expressing my feelings. Don't mind me.


I am drawing a distinction between aritifically contrived compassion, the kind of "mouth" compassion and bodhicitta that drips out of the mouths of Buddhist teachers and students alike (while they screw their students, steal money, manipulate each other and so on) and real compassion that stems from recognizing one's actual state and the resulting automatic responsive concern for those sentient beings who do not recognize their own nature.

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 1:50 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
mirage wrote:
Anyway, I am not really interested in discussing it, just expressing my feelings. Don't mind me.


I am drawing a distinction between aritifically contrived compassion, the kind of "mouth" compassion and bodhicitta that drips out of the mouths of Buddhist teachers and students alike (while they screw their students, steal money, manipulate each other and so on) and real compassion that stems from recognizing one's actual state and the resulting automatic responsive concern for those sentient beings who do not recognize their own nature.


All compassion is contrived until one reaches a realized state. In the causal vehicles contrived compassion leads to absolute compassion or in terms of the non-causals schools it results in removing the obscurations to realizing one's natural state. I thought this is why we practiced compassion (contrived) until it is actualized.


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:15 am 
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LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
mirage wrote:
Anyway, I am not really interested in discussing it, just expressing my feelings. Don't mind me.


I am drawing a distinction between aritifically contrived compassion, the kind of "mouth" compassion and bodhicitta that drips out of the mouths of Buddhist teachers and students alike (while they screw their students, steal money, manipulate each other and so on) and real compassion that stems from recognizing one's actual state and the resulting automatic responsive concern for those sentient beings who do not recognize their own nature.


All compassion is contrived until one reaches a realized state. In the causal vehicles contrived compassion leads to absolute compassion or in terms of the non-causals schools it results in removing the obscurations to realizing one's natural state. I thought this is why we practiced compassion (contrived) until it is actualized.


Yes, this is the gradualist party line. I think it is really just disempowering. Compassion is part of your state. Just let it go free.

M

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:22 am 
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Ok if you say so! :tongue:


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:37 am 
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LunaRoja wrote:
Ok if you say so! :tongue:



It is simple, when you see suffering, do you have compassion or not? Did that compassion come about because you spent lots of time sitting thinking about your kind mother, etc....? No, probably not. It came about because compassion is a natural part of our state and when we witness suffering, we are empathetic.

M

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 5:13 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
Ok if you say so! :tongue:



It is simple, when you see suffering, do you have compassion or not? Did that compassion come about because you spent lots of time sitting thinking about your kind mother, etc....? No, probably not. It came about because compassion is a natural part of our state and when we witness suffering, we are empathetic.

M


Realizing that the example of the kind mother is the source of compassion and love is a tool for fully developing it in ourselves. I don't believe that everyone exhibits empathy when suffering is witnessed and

I think if we look around the world we know what the answer to that is. However, I do believe that it is everyone's true nature to desire happiness and freedom from suffering and from this empathy can be generated.

It would not seem to be innate, but something that must be developed.

Shaun :namaste:


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 5:22 am 
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zerwe wrote:
It would not seem to be innate, but something that must be developed.


It is innate, but because of not recognizing the absence of identity, it's scope is limited.

If you want your compassion to be free from limitations, the only way to do that is to recognize your own state.

M

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:38 am 
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zerwe wrote:
...
Realizing that the example of the kind mother is the source of compassion


I'm not shure it's a good exemple ... it's most often an exemple of egoism, centered on herself, HER kid.

Sönam

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:58 am 
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Sönam wrote:
zerwe wrote:
...
Realizing that the example of the kind mother is the source of compassion


I'm not shure it's a good exemple ... it's most often an exemple of egoism, centered on herself, HER kid.

Sönam



Yup that example is highly dependent on the mother in question. Some paragon of virtue is intended, no doubt.

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