Compassion is an innate quality of one's primdordial state i.e. the basis. You can't really give up bodhicitta, and you can't really create it. It can be covered over by obscurations, but those are adventitious. When you recognize your condition as it is, compassion for others naturally arises.Anders Honore wrote: Are you saying bodhicitta is a dispensible part of Dzogchen?
Dzogchen and Compassion
Dzogchen and Compassion
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.LunaRoja wrote: I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
I thought the idea of the 3 KAYAS came from the Mahayana tradition. If Dzogchen posits Nirmankayas isn't this a Buddhist concept? How could a non-buddhist practice Dzogchen without an understanding of the 3 kayas?Namdrol wrote:When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.LunaRoja wrote: I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.
Thank you for your help.
LR
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
Personally, I don't think that anyone who is totally ignorant of Buddhism can really practise Dzogchen.LunaRoja wrote:I thought the idea of the 3 KAYAS came from the Mahayana tradition. If Dzogchen posits Nirmankayas isn't this a Buddhist concept? How could a non-buddhist practice Dzogchen without an understanding of the 3 kayas?Namdrol wrote:When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.LunaRoja wrote: I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.
Thank you for your help.
LR
He/she will be lost in translation of terms and concepts......
The sound of s i l e n c e.....
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
LunaRoja wrote:I thought the idea of the 3 KAYAS came from the Mahayana tradition. If Dzogchen posits Nirmankayas isn't this a Buddhist concept? How could a non-buddhist practice Dzogchen without an understanding of the 3 kayas?Namdrol wrote:When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.LunaRoja wrote: I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.
Thank you for your help.
LR
The three kāyas are just the essence, nature and energy/compassion of your own state. If you recognize that, it does not matter what you call them.
N
- Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
Could you elaborate on this, please?Namdrol wrote:When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.LunaRoja wrote: I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
One of the mains functions of the third primordial wisdom of the basis, called thugs rje, and translated in various ways to emphasize different aspects, is to provide the basis for working for the benefit of sentient beings after samsara and nirvana "turn their backs on one another". When we consider this from the point of view of its function, we call it rtsal -- and this rtsal is what is visible to ordinary sentient beings -- everyone can experience rtsal directly through their six senses. In fact, the operation of rtsal through their six senses is what gives rise to sense consciousnesses and so on. Nirmanakāyas are simply the energy of the basis that functions to help sentient beings in samsara in the same way that a wishfulflling gem grants all wishes, without thought, naturally, spontaneously.tomamundsen wrote:Could you elaborate on this, please?Namdrol wrote:When you realize your primordial state, out of that realization nirmanakāyas will naturally flow because compassion is inherent in your real nature.LunaRoja wrote: I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.
So when we fully integrate with our primordial state and acheive the great tranformation body or the body of light, out of that emanates so called nirmanakāyas to benefit sentient beings. Of course when we practice, we are practicing also out of concern for sentient beings. But we don't need to contrive that compassion. Even a hint of an experience of the nature of our mind is sufficient to activate our bodhicitta for others. This is a million times better than all the contrived meditations on bodhicitta one finds in such texts as Lam rim and so on. Of course, of you want to do Lamrim and systematically cultivate bodhicitta, there is no fault.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue May 15, 2012 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
This statement seems a little unfair to our Lam Rim friends. I have met some wonderfully compassionate Lam Rim students and some very grouchy Dzogchenpas. As far as compassion goes one of the most compassionate people I've met in my life is a Roman Catholic. I really think the nonsectarian approach is best. There are great fruits in all the schools and religions.Malcolm wrote: Are you a nicer person? I do not mean are you a more "compassionate" person in that syrupy fake Lam rim way.
M
Sincerely,
LR
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
LunaRoja wrote:This statement seems a little unfair to our Lam Rim friends. I have met some wonderfully compassionate Lam Rim students and some very grouchy Dzogchenpas. As far as compassion goes one of the most compassionate people I've met in my life is a Roman Catholic. I really think the nonsectarian approach is best. There are great fruits in all the schools and religions.Malcolm wrote: Are you a nicer person? I do not mean are you a more "compassionate" person in that syrupy fake Lam rim way.
M
Sincerely,
LR
Put emphasis on fake, then you will understand my point.
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
Well, earlier I was not sure if following this thread was a good idea. Now I am quite sure it is not.Malcolm wrote: I do not mean are you a more "compassionate" person in that syrupy fake Lam rim way.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
He says he is drawing a distinction between Lam Rim and fake Lam Rim.mirage wrote:Well, earlier I was not sure if following this thread was a good idea. Now I am quite sure it is not.Malcolm wrote: I do not mean are you a more "compassionate" person in that syrupy fake Lam rim way.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.
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Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
I am drawing a distinction between aritifically contrived compassion, the kind of "mouth" compassion and bodhicitta that drips out of the mouths of Buddhist teachers and students alike (while they screw their students, steal money, manipulate each other and so on) and real compassion that stems from recognizing one's actual state and the resulting automatic responsive concern for those sentient beings who do not recognize their own nature.mirage wrote: Anyway, I am not really interested in discussing it, just expressing my feelings. Don't mind me.
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
All compassion is contrived until one reaches a realized state. In the causal vehicles contrived compassion leads to absolute compassion or in terms of the non-causals schools it results in removing the obscurations to realizing one's natural state. I thought this is why we practiced compassion (contrived) until it is actualized.Malcolm wrote:I am drawing a distinction between aritifically contrived compassion, the kind of "mouth" compassion and bodhicitta that drips out of the mouths of Buddhist teachers and students alike (while they screw their students, steal money, manipulate each other and so on) and real compassion that stems from recognizing one's actual state and the resulting automatic responsive concern for those sentient beings who do not recognize their own nature.mirage wrote: Anyway, I am not really interested in discussing it, just expressing my feelings. Don't mind me.
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
Yes, this is the gradualist party line. I think it is really just disempowering. Compassion is part of your state. Just let it go free.LunaRoja wrote:All compassion is contrived until one reaches a realized state. In the causal vehicles contrived compassion leads to absolute compassion or in terms of the non-causals schools it results in removing the obscurations to realizing one's natural state. I thought this is why we practiced compassion (contrived) until it is actualized.Malcolm wrote:I am drawing a distinction between aritifically contrived compassion, the kind of "mouth" compassion and bodhicitta that drips out of the mouths of Buddhist teachers and students alike (while they screw their students, steal money, manipulate each other and so on) and real compassion that stems from recognizing one's actual state and the resulting automatic responsive concern for those sentient beings who do not recognize their own nature.mirage wrote: Anyway, I am not really interested in discussing it, just expressing my feelings. Don't mind me.
M
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
LunaRoja wrote:Ok if you say so!
It is simple, when you see suffering, do you have compassion or not? Did that compassion come about because you spent lots of time sitting thinking about your kind mother, etc....? No, probably not. It came about because compassion is a natural part of our state and when we witness suffering, we are empathetic.
M
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
Realizing that the example of the kind mother is the source of compassion and love is a tool for fully developing it in ourselves. I don't believe that everyone exhibits empathy when suffering is witnessed andMalcolm wrote:LunaRoja wrote:Ok if you say so!
It is simple, when you see suffering, do you have compassion or not? Did that compassion come about because you spent lots of time sitting thinking about your kind mother, etc....? No, probably not. It came about because compassion is a natural part of our state and when we witness suffering, we are empathetic.
M
I think if we look around the world we know what the answer to that is. However, I do believe that it is everyone's true nature to desire happiness and freedom from suffering and from this empathy can be generated.
It would not seem to be innate, but something that must be developed.
Shaun
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
It is innate, but because of not recognizing the absence of identity, it's scope is limited.zerwe wrote: It would not seem to be innate, but something that must be developed.
If you want your compassion to be free from limitations, the only way to do that is to recognize your own state.
M
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
I'm not shure it's a good exemple ... it's most often an exemple of egoism, centered on herself, HER kid.zerwe wrote: ...
Realizing that the example of the kind mother is the source of compassion
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
Sönam wrote:I'm not shure it's a good exemple ... it's most often an exemple of egoism, centered on herself, HER kid.zerwe wrote: ...
Realizing that the example of the kind mother is the source of compassion
Sönam
Yup that example is highly dependent on the mother in question. Some paragon of virtue is intended, no doubt.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.