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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:33 pm 
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Nice selection of teachings on Mahamudra from Vajra Echoes here.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:14 pm 
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You probably won't find any Kagyu teachers giving empowerments and lungs over a webcast. It's called the "whispered lineage" for a reason, from the lama's mouth to the student's ear in the same room. Every Kagyu lama I have ever come across is very serious about this.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:36 am 
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And even so you managed to end up with two Karmapas!
Sorry, but you were asking for it. :lol:

Are you implying that lamas from other schools are less serious about the transmission of their teachings? Do you believe they don't respect the transmission of the teachings of their schools, or that Kagyupas are more serious about them?

Kagyupas aren't more special than any others, neither secretive transmission of teachings makes them more valuable. Secret serves to protect the practitioner, not the teachings. If the teachings transmitted do no harm, as is the case of those transmitted via webcasts that I know about, you can spread them at the four winds for the benefit of all. Not doing so, beyond making people feel special for the privilege of having received them, just makes less people benefit. ~

Sectarianism is the ugly face of Tibetan Buddhism and has harmed enough people already. Perhaps it's time to stop. Making everyone believe their teachings were "very secret and special" was a way to motivate people to practice in Tibet and to attract followers to their schools. Everyone likes to practice secret teachings, it seems! The more secret, the most important! :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:58 am 
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The only school I mentioned was Kagyu. I didn't say anything about other schools, please calm down don't put words into my mouth. And Mahamudra is hardly secret, there are hundreds of books written on the subject open to anyone who wants to read them, videos abound on the internet. Receiving the transmission is not about feeling special, it is about recieving the blessing of the lineage. And you don't get that IN THE KAGYU TRADITION from reading books or watching videos.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:45 am 
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practitioner wrote:
You probably won't find any Kagyu teachers giving empowerments and lungs over a webcast. It's called the "whispered lineage" for a reason, from the lama's mouth to the student's ear in the same room. Every Kagyu lama I have ever come across is very serious about this.

Garchen Rinpoche is a Kagyu lama and the last time I saw him in person he very explicitly stated to those watching via webcast that there was no difference as long your intention was correct.
He gave an empowerment that day as well.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:49 am 
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Nangwa wrote:
practitioner wrote:
You probably won't find any Kagyu teachers giving empowerments and lungs over a webcast. It's called the "whispered lineage" for a reason, from the lama's mouth to the student's ear in the same room. Every Kagyu lama I have ever come across is very serious about this.

Garchen Rinpoche is a Kagyu lama and the last time I saw him in person he very explicitly stated to those watching via webcast that there was no difference as long your intention was correct.
He gave an empowerment that day as well.


Well then I stand corrected, my personal lamas however require you to be present.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:42 am 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
Making everyone believe their teachings were "very secret and special" was a way to motivate people to practice in Tibet and to attract followers to their schools. Everyone likes to practice secret teachings, it seems! The more secret, the most important! :lol:


... and do you believe so for Dzogchen (Thödgal) too?

Sönam

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:13 am 
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practitioner wrote:
You probably won't find any Kagyu teachers giving empowerments and lungs over a webcast. It's called the "whispered lineage" for a reason, from the lama's mouth to the student's ear in the same room. Every Kagyu lama I have ever come across is very serious about this.

Yes this still works very well.

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"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:40 am 
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It's becoming almost impossible on this forum for a thread not to mutate into a discussion of the wonders of Dzogchen.
:namaste:
The two Karmapas joke was neither funny nor relevant my dear DN! Mainly it is not relevant because Mahamudra is not limited just to the Karma Kagyu lineage. There are other Kagyu lineages you know! ;)

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:56 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
It's becoming almost impossible on this forum for a thread not to mutate into a discussion of the wonders of Dzogchen.
:namaste:


It is getting on a bit, isn't it?

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 11:22 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
It's becoming almost impossible on this forum for a thread not to mutate into a discussion of the wonders of Dzogchen.
:namaste:
The two Karmapas joke was neither funny nor relevant my dear DN! Mainly it is not relevant because Mahamudra is not limited just to the Karma Kagyu lineage. There are other Kagyu lineages you know! ;)

I couldn't resist, Greg, I'm sorry. :lol: It was meant as a joke. I'm sorry if it offended anyone. :anjali:
What you're saying is correct.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 11:26 am 
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Sönam wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Making everyone believe their teachings were "very secret and special" was a way to motivate people to practice in Tibet and to attract followers to their schools. Everyone likes to practice secret teachings, it seems! The more secret, the most important! :lol:


... and do you believe so for Dzogchen (Thödgal) too?

Sönam

Unfortunately many people also want to practice Thödgal because they think it's very secret, thus very special. It's the same mentality I was criticizing. The results are there to be seen, unfortunately. We've had a few samples in this forum of people going terribly wrong in the practice of Dzogchen (Jax coming to mind). That's what happens when people imagine they can do certain practices before they are ready for them or self style their own type of Dzogchen without having attainments beyond a big ego.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:17 pm 
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The reason I do not want Mahamudra to be broadcast is not because I want it to remain a private practice just for me and my mates, but because somebody that seriously wants to practice Mahamudra should make the effort to come into contact with a sangha and a teacher, and create tangible bonds with both of these. Following a webcast does neither of these, unless we want to turn Dharma into a virtual reality a "Second Life".
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:34 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
The reason I do not want Mahamudra to be broadcast is not because I want it to remain a private practice just for me and my mates, but because somebody that seriously wants to practice Mahamudra should make the effort to come into contact with a sangha and a teacher, and create tangible bonds with both of these. Following a webcast does neither of these, unless we want to turn Dharma into a virtual reality a "Second Life".
:namaste:

I don't know Greg. I think people don't stop searching for sanghas and teachers because they have webcasts. At least this is what I see in the DC. People do their best to go to meetings, courses, retreats and so on. What happens is that the webcasts are great when your teacher is not around (after all he can't spend a lot of time with just a few people). For instance, if I want to see my teacher, the closest place I need to travel is Barcelona. It's 1.200 kms away. On the 16th of this month my teacher will be giving a very interesting teaching about a subject I find very interesting. The thing is, he is in Hong Kong. However, since there will be a webcast, I will be able to attend the teaching. This doesn't mean I'm not doing by best to save money to meet him asap. It means I can receive teachings even when he is at the opposite side of the world the moment he gives them. Almost every week or fortnight, I can receive live, fresh teachings and if the schedule is incompatible with mine, I can listen to the replays a few days later.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:17 pm 
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I can understand that, but shouldn't the emphasis in a religious organisation be on training new teachers to be able to teach, tete-a-tete at a local level, rather than invest all the time and energy into merely broadcasting the teachings of one teacher? Isn't that why there are mandalas set up around teachers? Even the greatest teacher must die at some point in time so what happens then? Another steps in? And what if the is not at the same level or does not have the same didactic idiosynchracies? That's the thing with broadcasts, yes they get the teachings across (to a certain extent) but are not a solid basis for producing teachers. I can see this with myself. I get to have personal contact with my teachers two-three times a year, in those brief encounters I have to have a mountain of questions answered and requests for practices fulfiled. I always leave the encounters dazed from the Dharma overload. If I had continuous personal contact though...
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:24 pm 
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One doesn't exclude the other, Greg. ChNN has close disciples. Unfortunately not everyone has such fortune.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:31 am 
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Astus wrote:
Mahamudra is not as bound to transmissions as Dzogchen, when it is understood to be separate from the path of sutra and tantra. So it is very much acceptable to have books, DVD's and all the other forms spreading the teachings made available. It is, after all, a liberating instruction.

The Quintessence of Mahamudra says in the chapter "The Description of the Preparatory Exercises for This Meditative Path" (p. 123f)

"Regarding the manner of imparting the profound path [of mahamudra], the venerable Gampopa considered it to be an independent path of tantra. So he did not make the esoteric empowerment a prerequisite for receiving the mahamudra teachings. He spoke about the method of directly guiding the disciple toward the intrinsic reality of the mind."

and

"On the other hand, if one follows venerable Gampopa's system in elucidating mahamudra alone, it is not necessary to bestow the empowerment upon devotees. In keeping with his system one should adhere to the preparatory exercises he prescribed without incorporating the tantric meditation of Vajrasattva, the utterance of mantra, the transformation of oneself into yidam, and the visualization of one's guru in the form of Buddha Vajradhara, the source of the mystic empowerment."


Are there any mahamudra masters who will instruct mahamudra only (without giving/requiring the empowerments), if requested to do so? And if so, who?

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:38 am 
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I received mahamudra instruction (Rangjung Dorjes Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra) before even having taken refuge (let alone empowerments and ngondro). So, in answer to your question, YES!
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:25 am 
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justsit wrote:
Nice selection of teachings on Mahamudra from Vajra Echoes here.



Thanks, that looks very helpful.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:38 pm 
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Astus wrote:
Mahamudra is not as bound to transmissions as Dzogchen,


Mahāmudra, like Dzogchen, is dependent on direct introduction.

N

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