Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
Hi all!
I've been coming across a lot of texts with Tibetan followed by a transliteration followed by an English translation. These are mainly practice texts.
It is not wylie transliteration nor it does it seem to be the direct phonetic transliteration but a transliteration aimed at allowing the reader to approximate the sounds.
Are there any rules with this sort of transliteration? It seems like many sounds/letters are not directly equivalent to English (i.e. 'g' is pronounced 'k' or vice versa). Also the 'ö' like in Pema Chödrön. How is that pronounced?
Any help for this novice would be appreciated!
Lotwell
I've been coming across a lot of texts with Tibetan followed by a transliteration followed by an English translation. These are mainly practice texts.
It is not wylie transliteration nor it does it seem to be the direct phonetic transliteration but a transliteration aimed at allowing the reader to approximate the sounds.
Are there any rules with this sort of transliteration? It seems like many sounds/letters are not directly equivalent to English (i.e. 'g' is pronounced 'k' or vice versa). Also the 'ö' like in Pema Chödrön. How is that pronounced?
Any help for this novice would be appreciated!
Lotwell
- gad rgyangs
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Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
everybody and their mother have their own phonetic transliteration system, none of which are very good. easier to just learn how to pronounce tibetan.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
Yes I understand. And indeed I am learning classical Tibetan. However, it is a process. In the meantime I would like to pronounced practice texts with some approximation.
What is the ö supposed to represent? Is it a certain tone?
Thanks : ) Deep bows,
Lotwell
What is the ö supposed to represent? Is it a certain tone?
Thanks : ) Deep bows,
Lotwell
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
I think it is the same as the German o with an umlaut. Here even romanized approximation doesn't do any justice. "Oe" doesn't really = ölotwell wrote:Yes I understand. And indeed I am learning classical Tibetan. However, it is a process. In the meantime I would like to pronounced practice texts with some approximation.
What is the ö supposed to represent? Is it a certain tone?
Thanks : ) Deep bows,
Lotwell
So, I assume it is similar to "ö" in Schön.
Shaun
- dharmagoat
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Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
I agree. But some are better than others.gad rgyangs wrote:everybody and their mother have their own phonetic transliteration system, none of which are very good. easier to just learn how to pronounce tibetan.
The THL Simplified Phonetic Transcription of Standard Tibetan is an attempt to standardise a phonetically-based romanised writing system for Tibetan.
- gad rgyangs
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- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
yes, I learned that one when I studied with Nicolas Tournadre at UVa one summer, but even then we didn't really use it at all: we learned to pronounce Tibetan correctly from day one., learning the traditional spelling da-ra-ta-tra-kigu-tri (see you cant even really put that phonetically correctly into latin spelling)... etc. Sure, its probably the best phonetic system (he is a linguistics scholar who specializes in Tibetic languages), but how many dharma texts have you seen that use it? 0?dharmagoat wrote:I agree. But some are better than others.gad rgyangs wrote:everybody and their mother have their own phonetic transliteration system, none of which are very good. easier to just learn how to pronounce tibetan.
The THL Simplified Phonetic Transcription of Standard Tibetan is an attempt to standardise a phonetically-based romanised writing system for Tibetan.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
- dharmagoat
- Posts: 2159
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
I agree that taking the time to learn the correct pronunciation of Tibetan is the key. The problem is that those who have both the time and inclination to do this are relatively few. Also there is the problem of writing Tibetan in the Tibetan script. Even with the (now) widespread adoption of Unicode, for most of us writing in the Tibetan script is not as straightforward as writing in our own native roman script, nor is it as accessible. We need a standardised system for writing Tibetan, even if it provides only an approximation to the correct pronunciation. Often it takes time for a standard to become established. Unicode is a good example of this.gad rgyangs wrote:yes, I learned that one when I studied with Nicolas Tournadre at UVa one summer, but even then we didn't really use it at all: we learned to pronounce Tibetan correctly from day one., learning the traditional spelling da-ra-ta-tra-kigu-tri (see you cant even really put that phonetically correctly into latin spelling)... etc. Sure, its probably the best phonetic system (he is a linguistics scholar who specializes in Tibetic languages), but how many dharma texts have you seen that use it? 0?
- gad rgyangs
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- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
if you cant understand the tibetan you should probably just use english (or whatever ones native language is) except for the mantras. after all, the tibetans themselves translated everything into their own language, just keeping the mantras in sanskrit.dharmagoat wrote:I agree that taking the time to learn the correct pronunciation of Tibetan is the key. The problem is that those who have both the time and inclination to do this are relatively few. Also there is the problem of writing Tibetan in the Tibetan script. Even with the (now) widespread adoption of Unicode, for most of us writing in the Tibetan script is not as straightforward as writing in our own native roman script, nor is it as accessible. We need a standardised system for writing Tibetan, even if it provides only an approximation to the correct pronunciation. Often it takes time for a standard to become established. Unicode is a good example of this.gad rgyangs wrote:yes, I learned that one when I studied with Nicolas Tournadre at UVa one summer, but even then we didn't really use it at all: we learned to pronounce Tibetan correctly from day one., learning the traditional spelling da-ra-ta-tra-kigu-tri (see you cant even really put that phonetically correctly into latin spelling)... etc. Sure, its probably the best phonetic system (he is a linguistics scholar who specializes in Tibetic languages), but how many dharma texts have you seen that use it? 0?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
- dharmagoat
- Posts: 2159
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
I don't agree. And what about proper nouns, like place names and people's names? These can't be translated.gad rgyangs wrote:if you cant understand the tibetan you should probably just use english (or whatever ones native language is) except for the mantras. after all, the tibetans themselves translated everything into their own language, just keeping the mantras in sanskrit.
- gad rgyangs
- Posts: 1142
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
wtf? vajrayogini= dorjenaljorma, hevajra=kyedorje ive seen english translations of names too like "diamond sow" for vajravarahidharmagoat wrote:I don't agree. And what about proper nouns, like place names and people's names? These can't be translated.gad rgyangs wrote:if you cant understand the tibetan you should probably just use english (or whatever ones native language is) except for the mantras. after all, the tibetans themselves translated everything into their own language, just keeping the mantras in sanskrit.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
- dharmagoat
- Posts: 2159
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
How would you translate "ཆོས་རྒྱལ་ནམ་མཁའི་ནོར་བུ་" (chos rgyal nam mkha'i nor bu)?gad rgyangs wrote:wtf? vajrayogini= dorjenaljorma, hevajra=kyedorje ive seen english translations of names too like "diamond sow" for vajravarahi
- gad rgyangs
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Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
Dharma King Sky Jeweldharmagoat wrote:How would you translate "ཆོས་རྒྱལ་ནམ་མཁའི་ནོར་བུ་" (chos rgyal nam mkha'i nor bu)?gad rgyangs wrote:wtf? vajrayogini= dorjenaljorma, hevajra=kyedorje ive seen english translations of names too like "diamond sow" for vajravarahi
but why would you want to translate his name?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
- dharmagoat
- Posts: 2159
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
My point exactly.gad rgyangs wrote:Dharma King Sky Jeweldharmagoat wrote:How would you translate "ཆོས་རྒྱལ་ནམ་མཁའི་ནོར་བུ་" (chos rgyal nam mkha'i nor bu)?gad rgyangs wrote:wtf? vajrayogini= dorjenaljorma, hevajra=kyedorje ive seen english translations of names too like "diamond sow" for vajravarahi
but why would you want to translate his name?
- gad rgyangs
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- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
its actually interesting that the trend when it comes to names in the west is to revert back to the sanskrit when that is the original form, as opposed to the tibetans who translated sanskrit names into tibetan.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
- gad rgyangs
- Posts: 1142
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
you said they "can't be translated", which is false, and of course the tibetans did exactly that: they translated all the indic names into tibetan.dharmagoat wrote:My point exactly.gad rgyangs wrote:
Dharma King Sky Jewel
but why would you want to translate his name?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
- dharmagoat
- Posts: 2159
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
I can see how the misunderstanding came about. It would have been clearer if I had said "These are better not translated."dharmagoat wrote:What about proper nouns, like place names and people's names? These can't be translated.
Last edited by dharmagoat on Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
- gad rgyangs
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Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
so you think the tibetans were wrong to translate the sanskrit names into tibetan?dharmagoat wrote:I can see how the misunderstanding came about. It would have been clearer if I had said "These are better not translated".dharmagoat wrote:What about proper nouns, like place names and people's names? These can't be translated.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
- dharmagoat
- Posts: 2159
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
I have been talking only about the translation of Tibetan into other languages. I advocate transcription rather than translation, and support the standardisation of a phonetically-based transcription system for writing Tibetan.gad rgyangs wrote:so you think the tibetans were wrong to translate the sanskrit names into tibetan?
THL Simplified Phonetic Transcription of Standard Tibetan
- gad rgyangs
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Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
since the majority of tibetan dharma terms are translations from sanskrit, either of the two alternatives of A) using the original sanskrit terms or B) following the tradition started by the tibetans of translating the terms into one's native language, make more sense than C) keeping the tibetan translations.dharmagoat wrote:I have been talking only about the translation of Tibetan into other languages. I advocate transcription rather than translation, and support the standardisation of a phonetically-based transcription system for writing Tibetan.gad rgyangs wrote:so you think the tibetans were wrong to translate the sanskrit names into tibetan?
THL Simplified Phonetic Transcription of Standard Tibetan
the exception would be things like dzogchen texts, which are original tibetan compositions.
but really, there are no simple answers to these questions, and there is certainly no consensus at all among translators of how to handle these issues.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
Re: Tibetan transliteration pronunciation guides
Yes, it's great how standardized and widely used Pinyin is for Chinese. It would be nice if we could agree on a standard transliteration system, like a phonetic Wylie.dharmagoat wrote:I agree that taking the time to learn the correct pronunciation of Tibetan is the key. The problem is that those who have both the time and inclination to do this are relatively few. Also there is the problem of writing Tibetan in the Tibetan script. Even with the (now) widespread adoption of Unicode, for most of us writing in the Tibetan script is not as straightforward as writing in our own native roman script, nor is it as accessible. We need a standardised system for writing Tibetan, even if it provides only an approximation to the correct pronunciation. Often it takes time for a standard to become established. Unicode is a good example of this.
Lotwell